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Why is 'browning up' acceptable in Hollywood?

I use it in writing quite often, partly because it's easier than listing out all the backgrounds of the people who have expressed a similar opinion. Also, for me, because it can help express certain shared experiences and stuff partic wrt racism... My mum describes herself as politically black, as did many poc of her generation, but she is "ethnically brown"... I think it's a difficult one.

Thanks thats the way i read it.

If its not clear i am not taking issue with the Term POC i'm taking issue with people using the term people of colour when talking about racism and then ascribing the same set of values and POV to all black and brown people wrt the issue.When even a cursory glance of this thread would be enough to confirm that the self identified POCs on a politically homogeneous bulletin board can't agree on the price of bread let alone anything else ;)
 
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Perhaps so. But easier than getting all down nitty gritty into all the various races and cultures that it so easily could have slipped into. Oh hang on, it did anyway...

Cultural baggage does shape the individuals response to something like casting bigotry in religious movies though, say a Muslims response is going to be different to a Rasterfari,an atheists,a Catholics or a Presbyterian say.
 
Thanks thats the way i read it.

If its not clear i am not taking issue with the Term POC i'm taking issue with people using the term people of colour when talking about racism and then ascribing the same set of values and POV to all black and brown people wrt the issue.When even a cursory glance of this thread would be enough to confirm that the self identified POCs on a politically homogeneous bulletin board can't agree on the price of bread let alone anything else ;)

Absolutely, totally agree.
 
How's about we let people decide how they want to refer to themselves, instead of telling them what is and isn't the best type of language to use?
We're allowed to express an opinion about it though, eh? POC is a US term as far as I can tell, and it sits awkwardly with me too. Mind you, this thread is a good example of how we in the UK often conflate US issues with UK ones and treat them as if they were the same when they're not, really.
 
I can't speak for Vintage Paw but I think there response may have been partly down to the tone of the other poster. So much of this thread has been dismissing people's lived experience. That post got my hackles up too and I agree with what VP said.

Edited to remove some personal info.
 
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it also reinforces a binary out of white and other
It does, and I'm not trying to have a go or dictate - there aren't good solutions sometimes. But after a quick look at the history of the term, it appears to have first been used by Martin Luther King as an alternative to 'coloured', specifically to refer to those people who would have been directed to the 'colored' toilet in segregated US. Ironically, it is a legacy of the 'one drop rule' in the racist apartheid US. For me, it doesn't map comfortably on to other situations, but I accept all you say, pt, and I can totally see why you say it.
 
Terminology like POC is useful for the reasons already stated.

My main issue with it is that it perpetuates the invisibility of 'Whiteness'.

No term is without it's flaws tho, I think... Or is there one that you think is a bit better?
 
No term is without it's flaws tho, I think... Or is there one that you think is a bit better?
yeah all flawed = because racism is bullshit/there being no such thing as race, it becomes impossible not to talk about it without adding to the bullshit.
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Since Athos has been talking about challenging moral absolutism Ive been trying to think about this all from a more philosophical/psychological angle.... a lot of it has already been covered, partly im thinking out loud, but still, hope this is of interest:

*if an actor limits themselves to roles that are essentially the ethnicity and accent they are born with there is no taboo-breaking about it - as an example thinking of someone like Ray Winstone playing eastenders - we go along with the characters he plays, theres little sense of offense (apart from maybe any inherent stereotyping written in to the role/s), and at worst you could say it shows he's a limited actor for not being able to take on more stretching roles

*if an actor plays a character of different ethnicity that may require different accents, but the character is still of a similiar enough skin colour then on the whole this is also completely acceptable by the vast majority of viewers, so long as the actor does a good job of it - a bad accent like Don Cheadle in Oceans 11 or a stereotypical performance may create offense, or make a joke of the performance, but its not a taboo-breaking thing to do in and of itself, particularly so if acted well - and if anything we respect the actor for taking on a stretching role.

*playing a character with a different skin colour to that of the actor does move into a taboo breaking area, even though on the face of it we respect actors for stretching themselves as much as possible, particularly so if they can pull it off - in fact an actor might be judged as limited for not taking on such roles. So why is it a taboo to do so? I've got these reasons

-historical: the bad politics associated with such acting in the past, and the racist ideas that feed in to the act - discussed already here so wont add to that.

-boundary transcending: this is an interesting bit of it I think. Part of the ways taboo comes around is having socially-agreed, clear boundaries and taboo-breaking is all about breaking those boundaries. The dressing up and acting out in carnival is often talked about as serving a taboo-breaking function, as is dressing up in drag, and i expect cinema/acting plays a big taboo-breaking function in our society. My point here is that I think there is a taboo at work here, socially constructed, which Athos was making the point that it isnt amoral in and of itself to break - I agree with that.

-I think on a visual level the playing of characters of other skin colours 'looks wrong' (unauthentic), even with the best make-up. I think theres a parallel with drag here - it is only on the rarest occasions that people beleive the costume, and if they don't then that discordance is something that many people, for deep psychological and socially constructed reasons, tend to find unnerving to different degrees.

- leading on from that, a last thought is I think in acting most people value a performance that captures the character authentically - the more authentic the better the performance. The visual part of that is probably the first layer that we respond to, and the more we know about and are sensitive to what we think the character should be like, the more we might hold the actor to account. For example a Swedish person might hold an Italian-American actor playing someone from Sweden to account more closely than a French-Canadian viewer would, picking up as they would on more subtle differences, and that may include the way the actor physically looks too. Playing a character of a different skin-colour is something everyone picks up on, and so makes it that much more problematic.
 
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yeah all flawed = because racism is bullshit/there being no such thing as race, it becomes impossible not to talk about it without adding to the bullshit..
It's difficult to talk about race without using categories that, ultimately, were first defined by racists. :(
 
- leading on from that, a last thought is I think in acting most people value a performance that captures the character authentically - the more authentic the better the performance. The visual part of that is probably the first layer that we respond to, and the more we know about and are sensitive to what we think the character should be like, the more we might hold the actor to account. For example a Swedish person might hold an Italian-American actor playing someone from Sweden to account more closely than a French-Canadian viewer would, picking up as they would on more subtle differences, and that may include the way the actor physically looks too. Playing a character of a different skin-colour is something everyone picks up on, and so makes it that much more problematic.

This reminds me of a post I made on another thread when this topic crashed its way over there. A character in a US tv show I was watching whose parents were Somali refugees, apparently. Yet she did not look Somali in the slightest. Not sure whether this was laziness, ignorance or just indifference on the part of the casting - it struck me as ' we need someone to play an African; she's "African-American" so job done'.
 
This reminds me of a post I made on another thread when this topic crashed its way over there. A character in a US tv show I was watching whose parents were Somali refugees, apparently. Yet she did not look Somali in the slightest. Not sure whether this was laziness, ignorance or just indifference on the part of the casting - it struck me as ' we need someone to play an African; she's "African-American" so job done'.
One of my aunts is Ethiopian, she is always being mistaken for West Indian by people from the West Indies.
 
One of my aunts is Ethiopian, she is always being mistaken for West Indian by people from the West Indies.

I think that's a much more plausible error than the case LBJ mentions though (that's not to say that an African-American can't look Somali, but most don't).
I'd say that particular case is more likely ignorance than anything else - I think a lot of people in American see 'black' as one race, but if you want to slice things up genetically* and wind up with a decent handful of races most will be black and unless you get into fairly high numbers you basically have races of black people and one other race that comprises Caucasians, Asians, everyone else.

(this is just using a genetic divergence idea of 'race')
 
I think that's a much more plausible error than the case LBJ mentions though (that's not to say that an African-American can't look Somali, but most don't).
I'd say that particular case is more likely ignorance than anything else - I think a lot of people in American see 'black' as one race, but if you want to slice things up genetically* and wind up with a decent handful of races most will be black and unless you get into fairly high numbers you basically have races of black people and one other race that comprises Caucasians, Asians, everyone else.

(this is just using a genetic divergence idea of 'race')
I think I have to eat my words here, tbf. Looking into it, since 1999, people from the persecuted Bantu minority in Somalia have been given preferential refugee status in the US.

Think I got this wrong.
 
Someone pretty much explained my position earlier in the thread.

I believe in some woolly notion of 'artistic integrity' and 'artistic freedom' -- whatever those things are. I think roles should be open to all, and the best person for the job should get the job. I also think that casting people who don't necessarily 'match' the skin colour, gender, sexuality or able-bodiedness of the character can be a transgressive and subversive act, and be a good thing.

'Best person' is a difficult notion though. What attributes and context do we exclude while including others? If a film is calling for some amount of verisimilitude, it could be argued that casting people who already match in some way certain attributes of a character is the 'best'. That would be why someone rather bulky and tall with a thick neck and broad chest might be cast to play a bouncer. For example. Of course, the casting director might be helping to perpetuate stereotypes by doing this. There is no concrete rule that can be put in place, because there is so much nuance involved.

But that aside, we don't live in a world free from context. The film used as the example by the OP doesn't exist in a vacuum. It isn't just one film where the lead have been 'whitewashed'. Hollywood has a long history of erasing the skin colour, ethnicity, and culture of the people it tells stories about - and it would be very difficult to argue that in every case it has been purely about artistic integrity. It would be very difficult to argue that they represent a history of Hollywood being transgressive and subversive in the sense of those things being progressive. This case in the OP feels particularly egregious to me because the lead are whitewashed, and those who play slaves and servants and people of far lower social standing are often brown. This is happening in the context of a Hollywood that whitewashes routinely, a Hollywood that stereotypes when certain ethnicities are depicted, a Hollywood that casts 'white' as 'good' and 'black/brown' as 'bad', and a world where whites have historically been in charge, and PoC generally haven't, and have been in turn either owned by them or subjugated by their systems. We cannot divorce any one film from its wider social and cultural context. Whitewashing the lead of this film is different to casting Idris Elba in Thor. I would also argue that browning or blacking up is different to a PoC applying makeup to appear white (outside of film, blacking up has historically been a way to mock PoC because they are somehow lesser; historically PoC doing things to appear white has been a way of attempting to pass, which is also a symptom of a society that has told them they are lesser) -- and in both cases the context would matter considerably.

An ideal world, a world free from contexts like this, would see us able to have all types of people in all types of role if that's what the director wanted to do. But this isn't an ideal world.

Karen has 3 apples. Susan has none.
It is agreed that Karen and Susan should be treated equally, because in the past they haven't been.
Both Karen and Susan are given 3 apples each.
Yay, equal treatment.
Oh, wait. Now Karen has 6 apples, and Susan has 3.

We are not starting this debate from a place where white actors and black, brown, asian etc. actors all have 3 apples each.
 
No term is without it's flaws tho, I think... Or is there one that you think is a bit better?

Sorry I missed this yesterday!

As you said, no term is without it's flaws so no, nothing better springs to mind in that sense. It's the catch-all aspect of it that makes it problematic and as pointed out that it reinforces the idea that Whiteness is invisible.
 
If a person is named 'Khan', their skin color must be.....what?

The character is called 'Khan Noonien Singh' which is just an amalgam of the most interesting-sounding names the writer found among members of the Star Trek production crew at the time IIRC. Originally he was played by a Mexican actor.

e2a: Khan was named after an old war buddy of Gene Roddenberry:

By the final draft, Khan is Indian; a character guesses that Khan is from Northern India, and "probably a Sikh."[15] Khan's full name was based on that of Kim Noonien Singh, a pilot Gene Roddenbery served with during the Second World War. Roddenbery lost touch with his friend and had hoped that Khan's similar name might attract his attention and renew his old acquaintance.
 
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