Why is 'browning up' acceptable in Hollywood?

[story]

What I mean is that Whiteness becomes the default to 'otherness' so the conversation is rarely about what it means to be White, how White people are etc.

Whiteness is not examined or named/labelled in the same way Blackness/otherness is. The focus is Black/Brown/other people are x, y, z, on perceived, generalised difference, which in itself implies anything un-named as White because the gaze is 'White'. It creates absolute positions and representations.

Prevalent/institutionalised/accepted/internalised, yet for the most part unexamined and deconstructed by many.

Already in bed so not a full response. Hope it makes sense and maybe I can get back to this tomorrow.

Thanks for this. None of it's simple, eh. I hadn't thought of it in this way before.

I've actually struggled to find a shape for this idea over the years.

I look white, sometimes I'm told I look Spanish or Italian, but I have Arab blood and when, for a period of time, I had a Syrian friend we were often mistaken for siblings.

I suppose I am white, but I'm a quarter Arabic, so I suppose I'm not really "white".

To be honest, I'm not even sure how to think/talk about this; it really feels like a non-issue in some ways (perhaps because I mostly look white European), but very important in other ways.

When I have to tick the box on forms, I hover between mixed and white, but then I tick white, because I'm not sure how to own my Arab blood as a person who appears to be white.

 

[Orang Utan]

There should be a Ginger option on those forms

 

[FNG]

its what you most feel comfortable with, if its not an issue for you to tick the box its no one elses business

 

[FNG]

at story obvs

 

[story]

its what you most feel comfortable with, if its not an issue for you to tick the box its no one elses business

Well yes, obviously this is true. And sometimes I do tick the mixed box.

My point was that this is the first time I've ever had the space or shape to form the question or talk about it.

I'm not trying to claim some kind of oppression, but this question around whiteness being a default setting and therefore not open to nuances or definition is interesting to me, exactly because I'm not 100% white although I look white.

ETA And since the forms are personal and confidential, it's never been something I've ever discussed. Given that I'm almost always assumed to be white, it seems so trivial and self-absorbed to want to talk about it. So I'm interested to see it raised here on this thread. That's all.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

There should be a Ginger option on those forms

You should write it in

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

But but but, I bet Saldana was literally the BEST actor for the job, so how dare you suggest she shouldn't have played that part.

Etc.

Choosing an actor isn't the same process as finding the best bus driver or the best neurosurgeon. There are objective criteria for those.

An actor is chosen at least in part because the actor will best conform to the writer and/or director's vision of how the character should be portrayed. A film is a creative piece, and a determination of what elements will best enhance the creative piece will be subjective to the directing minds.

Choosing actors is like choosing tints in a landscape painting - it's possible to argue after the fact whether or not the painter should have employed different tints - but the painter chose to express herself in the manner that ultimately appears on the canvas.

 

[Orang Utan]

It's a bit early for this nonsense, isn't it Johnny?

 

[Treacle Toes]

ETA And since the forms are personal and confidential, it's never been something I've ever discussed. Given that I'm almost always assumed to be white, it seems so trivial and self-absorbed to want to talk about it. So I'm interested to see it raised here on this thread. That's all.

It's a very personal thing IME, self-identifying that is. I am interested to know why you believe it trivial though, is it only because people assume you are?

There are many experiences of 'whiteness' which is one reason why I think it's problematic to perpetuate a universal by not talking about it.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

My point was that this is the first time I've ever had the space or shape to form the question or talk about it.

If you were in fact non-white, it's an issue that you would have thought about on a regular basis, all of your life.

 

[FNG]

Choosing an actor isn't the same process as finding the best bus driver or the best neurosurgeon. There are objective criteria for those.

An actor is chosen at least in part because the actor will best conform to the writer and/or director's vision of how the character should be portrayed. A film is a creative piece, and a determination of what elements will best enhance the creative piece will be subjective to the directing minds.

Choosing actors is like choosing tints in a landscape painting - it's possible to argue after the fact whether or not the painter should have employed different tints - but the painter chose to express herself in the manner that ultimately appears on the canvas.

Yew troshing?

the entertainment industry and the fashion industry promote and perpetuate the myth that lighter skin equals beauty,talent and box office appeal.
By constantly giving the best parts to the lightest actors even if it subsequently means darking their skin tones or in the case of Zoe Salmanac the wearing of awkward prostetics, you maintain the status quo,it ensures that fewer darker skined actors break through to become box office success in their own right.

Its not just a US thing though the same issues are rife in Bollywood too
http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2013/11/07/being-a-darker-shade-of-pale-in-bollywood/

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Then we should applaud the growing popularity of Nollywood films.

 

[FNG]

good idea got any to promote?

 

[Citizen66]

Sophia in London is quite funny in a Crocodile Dundee kind of way.

 

[Citizen66]

Apart from that, most Nigerian films I've seen seem to centre around a family argument.

 

[Orang Utan]

Linda Hunt did the triple as Billy Kwan in The Year Of Living Dangerously. An American actress playing a male Indonesian dwarf. She won an Oscar for it n all.

 

[8ball]

When I have to tick the box on forms, I hover between mixed and white, but then I tick white, because I'm not sure how to own my Arab blood as a person who appears to be white.

I'm a quarter black and I always tick white - seems easiest to go with the majority.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I don't know if this is of interest at all: http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/102462986268/rzzmg-via-saladin-ahmed-im-sorry-but-this

A bunch of statistics about diversity in various types of media.

For example:

 

[8ball]

"Of the 8 protagonists of colour, 6 are Will Smith"

 

[SpookyFrank]

So really we should just be mad at Will Smith for hogging all the black characters.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If Will Smith weren't a bankable star, there would be even fewer black characters. That's kind of the point - they're not really 'black characters', particularly in sci-fi. They're mostly characters whose race is not important, and where a character's race is not important, they're nearly always cast as white.

 

[Vintage Paw]

I'm sure all those white people were just the right people for the job. And I'm sure where roles are written with a specific skin colour in mind it's just because it's totally integral to the story that the protagonist be that colour - namely white in the majority of cases.

 

[Orang Utan]

I have just been reminded of this story:
http://gawker.com/straight-outta-co...ton-casting-call-is-racist-as-hell-1606524197

 

[ska invita]

Well yes, obviously this is true. And sometimes I do tick the mixed box.

is there a mixed box? never seen that. mixed lol. we're all mixed.
those forms are purely for stats for whoever it might be to get a feeling of the ethnicities of whoever is using their service - it is not a selection of hard categories to self identity by - everyones heritage is far more complex than that, and at the same time more communal

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't know if this is of interest at all: http://medievalpoc.tumblr.com/post/102462986268/rzzmg-via-saladin-ahmed-im-sorry-but-this

A bunch of statistics about diversity in various types of media.

For example:

tbh i would be interested in the ethnick make-up of the people seeing these pictures in the cinema

 

[Treacle Toes]

is there a mixed box? never seen that. mixed lol. we're all mixed.
those forms are purely for stats for whoever it might be to get a feeling of the ethnicities of whoever is using their service - it is not a selection of hard categories to self identity by - everyones heritage is far more complex than that, and at the same time more communal

I remember the time in my life when I could finally tick a box for most forms, before that I was simply other.

I know what you are saying about us all being mixed but you are not mixed in the way I am and I like being able to officially reflect my ethnic heritage/identity in the way I now can but couldn't previously. There's no LOL about that btw, there are some seriously personal considerations there. I know many other Mixed heritage people feel the same way too.

Having the opportunity for our different mixes to be acknowledged in this way is also a massive two fingers up to the 'one drop rule' ...which is never a bad thing IMO.

 

[ska invita]

ah thanks ruti i see what you're saying
we should all identify as mixed though is my point - to not do so is to reinforce ideas of race and racial cateogires (theres no such thing) and therefore racism

*i can see a value in box ticking out a form if it helps discrimination in the long run though

 

[SpookyFrank]

If Will Smith weren't a bankable star, there would be even fewer black characters. That's kind of the point - they're not really 'black characters', particularly in sci-fi. They're mostly characters whose race is not important, and where a character's race is not important, they're nearly always cast as white.

Now that you mention it I can think of a couple of remakes where WIll Smith has starred in a role originally played by a white actor.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

*i can see a value in box ticking out a form if it helps discrimination in the long run though

Yeah, for practical reasons of monitoring things, it's useful at the moment. The alternative is what you have in France, where it is illegal to ask someone about their race, but where racist discrimination most certainly still goes on and nothing is done at govt level to stop it.

What we don't have here, though, and I am very glad we don't, is any legal status to race. We are not legally any race, and we can legally self-identify as any race we like on forms (and also legally refuse to complete them). We're still able to have proactive anti-discrimination laws, but any idea that we might 'officially' be designated some race or another is highly questionable.

 

[SpookyFrank]

ah thanks ruti i see what you're saying
we should all identify as mixed though is my point - to not do so is to reinforce ideas of race and racial cateogires (theres no such thing) and therefore racism

'Mixed' is sometimes subdivided on the forms into black and white British, black and white Irish etc to make sure nobody is able to avoid being put in some kind of category or other.