Why is 'browning up' acceptable in Hollywood?

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's you telling a POC that they are wrong regarding their feelings surrounding what they perceive to be racism. Which is an astonishing position to adopt.

As you're aware, I'm a 'POC': have you, and do you, defer to anything and everything I have to say about race issues?

 

[Athos]

Now who has the straw man? I didn't suggest that you should defer to poptyping's opinion on the basis of them being a POC (I accept you didn't know this and I only suspect it because I think I know who it is) I said it was patronising for you to suggest they hadn't thought it through, an argument that you're still adamant to continue with despite now knowing that they are a POC (poptyping hasn't corrected me otherwise).

I understand you think it's patronising; I disagree.

It's like a woman complaining about sexism and all the men in the room telling her why she's wrong.

Well it depends what the woman is saying, doesn't it? She may be right, or she may be wrong.

Is that identity politics? I thought identity politics was organising around your identity regardless of whether you shared social or class interests with your comrades. I do think there's a place for identity politics *within* class politics where class politics (which lets face it, can be very white hetero male at times) fails to deal effectively with specific forms of bigotry.

One worrying aspect of the growth of identity politics (imported from the US) is the increasingly common theme of identity being used as a trump card to stifle debate (as well as becoming the focus of a lot of the left's activity, to the detriment of the struggle against capitalism).

 

[Citizen66]

As you're aware, I'm a 'POC': have you, and do you, defer to anything and everything I have to say about race issues?

I wouldn't think I knew more about racism than you did. How could I? It's something I've never really experienced (apart from the wankers in Barcelona but that's only really because my mate pointed it out, I wouldn't have thought there was a racial context to it otherwise).

 

[Citizen66]

I understand you think it's patronising; I disagree.

Only because you haven't thought it through.

Well it depends what the woman is saying, doesn't it? She may be right, or she may be wrong.

Of course. I may say the sky is blue and she may cry sexism. I'd argue she is wrong. I could call her a slag and she'd cry sexism and I might argue that she's wrong there too. But the weight of history of 'slag' being offensive would be against me I expect, much like blacking up being considered universally offensive; in the UK if not in other European countries.

One worrying aspect of the growth of identity politics (imported from the US) is the increasingly common theme of identity being used as a trump card to stifle debate (as well as becoming the focus of a lot of the left's activity, to the detriment of the struggle against capitalism).

I'd agree that identity politics is generally shit for the left. I don't think someone finding 'blacking up' offensive are doing it just to stifle the debate though.

 

[Athos]

Of course. I may say the sky is blue and she may cry sexism. I'd argue she is wrong. I could call her a slag and she'd cry sexism and I might argue that she's wrong there too. But the weight of history of 'slag' being offensive would be against me I expect, much like blacking up being considered universally offensive; in the UK if not in other European countries.

So you agree that she might be right, or she might be wrong. Which fatally undermines the point you were trying to make by likening this hypothetical scenario to me disagreeing with poptyping!

I'd agree that identity politics is generally shit for the left. I don't think someone finding 'blacking up' offensive are doing it just to stifle the debate though.

I didn't say (s)he was trying to stifle debate; I said that you were wrong to imply that I ought not to argue with poptyping about this issue because (s)he is a POC.


I think this has gone as far as it can, now.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I wouldn't think I knew more about racism than you did. How could I?

I think there can be many ways that a 'non-POC' could have a heightened awareness of racism: living in a racially diverse neighborhood, for instance. Marriage to a POC. Longterm friends who are POC. etc.

It might even be possible that a non-POC in such a circumstance could have a greater understanding of racism, than would a wealthy African from Nigeria etc. who'd spent little time outside of their country of origin.

Of course I understand your point; I just don't think it's always right to dismiss the ideas of someone based on what they are, as opposed to considering who they are [ie their personal experience etc]

 

[Citizen66]

So you agree that she might be right, or she might be wrong. Which fatally undermines the point you were trying to make by likening this hypothetical scenario to me disagreeing with poptyping!

Did you read my post in its entirety or are you being deliberately disingenuous?
The specifics were you saying a POC was incorrect regarding their views of blacking up in Hollywood because they 'hadn't thought it through'. I didn't say you couldn't disagree with their position. I said (originally) that it was a patronising thing to say and (in my last post) that the weight of history of blacking up was on poptyping's side anyway.

How the fuck is that undermining my own argument?

Besides that, I think the discussion is pretty much exhausted also.

 

[Citizen66]

I think there can be many ways that a 'non-POC' could have a heightened awareness of racism: living in a racially diverse neighborhood, for instance. Marriage to a POC. Longterm friends who are POC. etc.

It might even be possible that a non-POC in such a circumstance could have a greater understanding of racism, than would a wealthy African from Nigeria etc. who'd spent little time outside of their country of origin.

Of course I understand your point; I just don't think it's always right to dismiss the ideas of someone based on what they are, as opposed to considering who they are [ie their personal experience etc]

Which is exactly what Athos was doing when he told poptyping that they 'hadn't thought it through'. I pointed out that it was an incredibly patronising thing to say. Perhaps I should have left out the fact poptyping is a POC as that's what seems to have led to this extended toing and froing about a POC's view carrying more weight than a non-POC regarding racism.

 

[Athos]

Which is exactly what Athos was doing when he told poptyping that they 'hadn't thought it through'. I pointed out that it was an incredibly patronising thing to say. Perhaps I should have left out the fact poptyping is a POC as that's what seems to have led to this extended toing and froing about a POC's view carrying more weight than a non-POC regarding racism.

I didn't dismiss the opinion at all; I disagreed with it. And I didn't do that becasue of who or what poptyping is, but because it doesn't stack up.

And you couldn't have left out the racial element, because our respective races was absolutely central to the point you were obviously trying to make when you said:

Do you realise how patronising that sounds coming from a white person to a POC who has stated that they're offended by it?

"You shouldn't be offended, you just haven't thought this through properly!"

But, even shorn of the racial element, the suggestion that it's patronising doesn't make sense. As you'll see from the context of the exchange (the most significant parts of which are reproduced below), my comment about poptyping's position not being properly thought through was not only in response to him/her questioning whether I had thought about it, but also it was quite specific. It was in response to poptyping's post which denied the inescapable consequences of his/her line of thinking (which consequences I had set out in my previous post). And I stand by that: it is an absurd position that asserts it's never acceptable for a white actor to play a black character, even when the decision to cast that white actor is free from any hint of racism (i.e. the hypothetical precondition I had set out more than once). To continue to assert that it's never ok, whilst not recognising the absurdity to which that line of thinking leads, does indicate a poorly thought-through position.

Are you for real? Blacking up or browning up whatever is not ok under any circumstance.

I disgree. Blacking up is not acceptable when it's to poke fun at people of colour, and it's not acceptable if it is a way to avoid employing people of colour. But, if the process is fair and the casting director considers a white actor to be the most able to play a particular role, then I can't really see what the issue is. Actors pretend to be someone they're not all the time.

What justification is there for having a white person black up to play a black character?

That they might be more able to portray the totality of the character (which, presumably, you agree is more than simply a skin colour) better than any of the other applicants for the role.

... You don't have to agree with me, I'm not suggesting that, but perhaps when people with lived experience of racism tell you something you could take a step back, listen and think about what they have to say.

I've listened and thought. I just disagree.

How much thought have you given this?

Are you for real?

Entirely. You don't come over as if you've thought this through, at all. Rather that you're taking a knee-jerk position, absolutist and over-simplistic position. Essentially, you're saying that it is never alright for a white person to play a character who is not white (and that it never could be alright). Not only does that lack any rational basis when confronted with the hypothetical preconditions I set out i.e. that the casting decision was not based on racist grounds (explicit or implicit, direct or indirect), but it also results in the absurd nonsense alluded to above.

No. I haven't said any of that. I have said that it's not ok to black up.

Then you don't seem to have thought through the consequences of your position.

 

[Santino]

If things were different, then it might be acceptable to do different things.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Athos Oi cockend you missed this bit out.

That's a very simplistic view. There's a history of oppression and humiliation around blacking up which can't be divorced from it whatever the attempted justification. There are plenty of actors of colour. There is absolutely no need to have a white person black up. It's something that clearly belongs in the dustbin of history.

Anyway stop quoting me. I said I'm not going to talk about this with you anymore.

 

[Citizen66]

Fair enough. I think (as 8ball suggested earlier) its a case of people talking past each other. You're nesting your argument in a white actor playing a black character not being necessarily offensive in certain contexts. I think others (myself included) are basing their posts on the context of the op (and blacking up in general in the context of societies not free from racism).

 

[Athos]

Athos Oi cockend you missed this bit out.

Yes, and my response to it. Becasue it wasn't central to the specific point. In any event, I made clear that I was quoting selectively.

Anyway stop quoting me.

I'll quote what I like.

I said I'm not going to talk about this with you anymore.

Fuck off then.

 

[Athos]

Fair enough. I think (as 8ball suggested earlier) its a case of people talking past each other. You're nesting your argument in a white actor playing a black character not being necessarily offensive in certain contexts. I think others (myself included) are basing their posts on the context of the op (and blacking up in general in the context of societies not free from racism).

Yes. I've acknowledged the current reality of a racist Hollywood, but have been at pains to point out that my argument is that, in principle, the idea of a white actor playing a black character is not inevitably offensive. Do you at least agree with that proposition?

 

[Citizen66]

If things were different, then it might be acceptable to do different things.

Exactly. It's a bit bizarre to be having whimsical flights of fancy when the topic is set in a pretty specific context. Athos did well though: if you want me to back off just hit me with a mountain of text.

 

[Citizen66]

Yes. I've acknowledged the current reality of a racist Hollywood, but have been at pains to point out that my argument is that, in principle, the idea of a white actor playing a black character is not inevitably offensive. Do you at least agree with that proposition?

Yes of course. If we could erase history I'm sure my views on many things would be different.

 

[Athos]

Yes of course. If we could erase history I'm sure my views on many things would be different.

Then you now agree with me, and we both disagree with poptyping , when he/she said:

Are you for real? Blacking up or browning up whatever is not ok under any circumstance. [my emphasis]

 

[Fez909]

Then you now agree with me, and we both disagree with poptyping , when he/she said:

Are you for real? Blacking up or browning up whatever is not ok under any circumstance. [my emphasis]

"erasing history" goes a bit beyond the normal meaning of "under any circumstance" though. Quite a bit, in fact.

 

[Athos]

"erasing history" goes a bit beyond the normal meaning of "under any circumstance" though. Quite a bit, in fact.

The idea that, in the future, casting decisions could be free of racism does not require history to be erased.

 

[Citizen66]

Then you now agree with me, and we both disagree with poptyping , when he/she said:

Are you for real? Blacking up or browning up whatever is not ok under any circumstance. [my emphasis]

Oh come on. Shagging kids could be acceptable in certain circumstances. Beating your girlfriend could. We might breathe in carbon dioxide and drink sulphuric acid in certain circumstances and it be normal. We might have seven mouths and double decker buses for feet.

What is this shit?

 

[DotCommunist]

personally I've stated before that if it takes you longer to explain why you are in blackface than it takes to get punched on the nose then you shouldn't do it.

 

[Athos]

Oh come on. Shagging kids could be acceptable in certain circumstances. Beating your girlfriend could. We might breathe in carbon dioxide and drink sulphuric acid in certain circumstances and it be normal. We might have seven mouths and double decker buses for feet.

What is this shit?

So, are you flip-flopping again? Do you agree with me, or not?

 

[Fez909]

The idea that, in the future, casting decisions could be free of racism does not require history to be erased.

But the history and connotations of blacking up will still exist, even if the conditions that created them do not. You cannot erase that, no matter how meritocratic your acting universe.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Athos

You fucking off you cunt. Stop quoting and tagging me. I've told you I'm not discussing this anymore. Leave me out of it.

 

[Belushi]

Oi cockend

 

[Athos]

Athos

You fucking off you cunt. Stop quoting and tagging me. I've told you I'm not discussing this anymore. Leave me out of it.

Put me on ignore if it bothers you that much. Prick.

 

[Athos]

But the history and connotations of blacking up will still exist, even if the conditions that created them do not. You cannot erase that, no matter how meritocratic your acting universe.

As I've said, the point I was making doesn't require history to be erased.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Put me on ignore if it bothers you that much. Prick.

Cock off, twat.

 

[8ball]

We might have seven mouths and double decker buses for feet.

 

[Athos]

Cock off, twat.

Great comeback.