White civil rights leader has pretended to be black for years

[Sea Star]

No, because nobody lives in a vacuum. Race (like gender) is socially constructed, both on the macro scale, and the micro i.e. in the individual case, through interaction with those around us. It's on a par to a transexual having no childhood photos of them in the 'other' body, and denying when asked if they were raised in another gender (which they have the right to do, of course).

Race is genetic and inherited from your parents.

Gender isn't.

And as a cis female feminist friend of mine once asked me - what exactly does being raised in a gender mean? Especially when you never identified as that gender in the first place?

 

[Wilf]

Also Monday, Eastern Washington University removed Dolezal’s biography from its website.

Must of happened late yesterday (UK time), she was still up there in the afternoon. It's interesting watching the various institutional gears beginning to grind. Lots of meetings, lots of panicky PR calculations.

 

[frogwoman]

http://time.com/3922477/rachel-dolezal-nbc-today-black-identify/?xid=tcoshare .

Apparently shes 'identified as black' since she was 5!

 

[frogwoman]

There are people who detransition (i know a woman who did) but again, in general, they havent deceived anyone to the extent of inventing a whole fake life for themselves.

 

[Pickman's model]

She wasn't masquerading as a Black woman at that point.

http://time.com/3922477/rachel-dolezal-nbc-today-black-identify/?xid=tcoshare .

Apparently shes 'identified as black' since she was 5!

 

[Pickman's model]

There are people who detransition (i know a woman who did) but again, in general, they havent deceived anyone to the extent of inventing a whole fake life for themselves.

surely they're not detransitioning but retransitioning

 

[Pickman's model]

Must of happened late yesterday (UK time), she was still up there in the afternoon. It's interesting watching the various institutional gears beginning to grind. Lots of meetings, lots of panicky PR calculations.

the bureaucratick machine lumbers into life

 

[frogwoman]

surely they're not detransitioning but retransitioning

Yep thats how she sees it i think.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep thats how she sees it i think.

yeh but detransitioning suggests going backwards which i don't believe you can do: you can't piss in the same river twice etc.

 

[MochaSoul]

http://time.com/3922477/rachel-dolezal-nbc-today-black-identify/?xid=tcoshare .

Apparently shes 'identified as black' since she was 5!

Ah the bullshit!

 

[frogwoman]

yeh but detransitioning suggests going backwards which i don't believe you can do: you can't piss in the same river twice etc.

Yeah, she sees it as something that was necessary for her at the time rather than wanting to go backwards.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Have you seen her wedding photos? She was not masquerading as a Black woman at that point nor at Howard when she claimed discrimination for being White.

 

[MochaSoul]

I hope her parents have some of her childhood drawings

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, she sees it as something that was necessary for her at the time rather than wanting to go backwards.

i suggest some sort of transitioning will be taking place as a matter of urgency, the sort associated on this side of the pond with a p45: which in american terms is some sort of plane

 

[Pickman's model]

Have you seen her wedding photos? She was not masquerading as a Black woman at that point nor at Howard when she claimed discrimination for being White.

fair enough it seems opinions differ

 

[Wilf]

Here's one where she says her ex-husband made her 'act white'.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/jun/15/Rachel-dolezal-told-student-that-ex-husband/

 

[butchersapron]

yeh but detransitioning suggests going backwards which i don't believe you can do: you can't piss in the same river twice etc.

 

[Sea Star]

There are people who detransition (i know a woman who did) but again, in general, they havent deceived anyone to the extent of inventing a whole fake life for themselves.

a tiny number in comparison to those who transition. Research shows the main reason for detransitioning is lack of support in the new gender role and whether they ever successfully settle back into their old gender role is debateable. Many still seem to identify as trans even after detranstitioning

 

[MochaSoul]

Here's one where she says her ex-husband made her 'act white'.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2015/jun/15/Rachel-dolezal-told-student-that-ex-husband/

Maybe he didn't want to interact with a fake.

 

[Sea Star]

http://time.com/3922477/rachel-dolezal-nbc-today-black-identify/?xid=tcoshare .

Apparently shes 'identified as black' since she was 5!

on what basis though? Gender dysphoria is experienced by many thousands of people and there is much research that shows it is a genuine phenomena. And speaking as someone who suffered from it - it is debilitating.

Many trans people pre transtion are identified as their true gender by others even without having to be out about it - as was I. It is often impossible to completely hide it.

 

[Athos]

Because gender identitiy is not something you choose. When you're trans you cannot pretend to be cis. When you transition to female you are not pretending - it is real - and you cannot then suddenly decide to go back to being male, because you never were.

There is a huge difference!!

So you say. And I believe you. But what if someone were to say the same about cultural identity? That they were born black, albeit in a white skin; that they've always been black; that they could never go back to being white simply by removing the self-tan and braids, because they never were white. I wouldn't believe them, But, what's the ration reason why ought we not to believe them?

 

[MochaSoul]

on what basis though?

On the basis that now she has to extend her narrative to defend herself in the face of all the mythbusting that's been going on.

 

[frogwoman]

a tiny number in comparison to those who transition. Research shows the main reason for detransitioning is lack of support in the new gender role and whether they ever successfully settle back into their old gender role is debateable. Many still seem to identify as trans even after detranstitioning

Yep

on what basis though? Gender dysphoria is experienced by many thousands of people and there is much research that shows it is a genuine phenomena. And speaking as someone who suffered from it - it is debilitating.

Many trans people pre transtion are identified as their true gender by others even without having to be out about it - as was I. It is often impossible to completely hide it.

I agree! She says she would draw herself with a brown crayon and that meant she identified as black

 

[Athos]

Race is genetic and inherited from your parents.

Gender isn't.

And as a cis female feminist friend of mine once asked me - what exactly does being raised in a gender mean? Especially when you never identified as that gender in the first place?

I don't think that issue goes to heart of the distinction. After all, race and sex are genetic/chromosonal, but gender and cultural identity and social constructs. There is an obvious parallel.

 

[Treacle Toes]

WTAF?

Rachel Dolezal’s brother, author Joshua Dolezal, faces trial for alleged sexual abuse of a black child

It was revealed Monday that Dolezal’s older brother Joshua Dolezal is awaiting trial on charges he sexually abused a black child — charges that the Dolezal family, in their own television appearance, implied Rachel Dolezal may have helped orchestrate. Joshua Dolezal is contesting the charges and is free on $15,000 bail while awaiting trial, according to the Denver Post.

Joshua Dolezal’s troubles could perhaps explain at least one piece of the complicated puzzle behind this saga, the question of why Rachel Dolezal’s parents would expose their daughter to such public humiliation and perhaps legal jeopardy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-of-a-black-child/?postshare=5971434458282056

 

[Sea Star]

So you say. And I believe you. But what if someone were to say the same about cultural identity? That they were born black, albeit in a white skin; that they've always been black; that they could never go back to being white simply by removing the self-tan and braids, because they never were white. I wouldn't believe them, But, what's the ration reason why ought we not to believe them?

Race is determined by genes alone and is an entirely different sort of thing than gender which is determined by a complex mix of environmental factors which in most individuals match sex organs - but not all.

If those who advocate such "transracialness" or whatever we call it can build up a body of evidence such as we have to support gender dysphoria then they might be in business.

 

[Sea Star]

I don't think that issue goes to heart of the distinction. After all, race and sex are genetic/chromosonal, but gender and cultural identity and social constructs. There is an obvious parallel.

cultural identity is not race. Race is your genetic inheritance. Otherwise Scottish people would be a race as would North Americans.

 

[Athos]

WTAF?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-of-a-black-child/?postshare=5971434458282056

It demonstrates a reason her parents might want to potray her not only as a liar but also as someone who hates white people and loves black people. Calling her credibility as a witness for the prosecution into question, both in terms of a history of deceit and of motive.

 

[Treacle Toes]

It demonstrates a reason her parents might want to potray her not only as a liar but also as someone who hates white people and loves black people. Calling her credibility as a witness for the prosecution into question, both in terms of a history of deceit and of motive.

Maybe, yet she has outed herself as a liar repeatedly. Oh yeah...you are not interested in those lies. As you were.

 

[Athos]

Race is determined by genes alone and is an entirely different sort of thing than gender which is determined by a complex mix of environmental factors which in most individuals match sex organs - but not all.

If those who advocate such "transracialness" or whatever we call it can build up a body of evidence such as we have to support gender dysphoria then they might be in business.

You're comparing race with gender, whereas I'm saying that the argument would be that race is more analogous to sex, and that gender is more analogous to cultural identity.

Is that where the difference lies? The extent of medicalisation of the issue? If enough people presented with clinical implications to their feeling that their skin colour does not match how they define their cultural identity, would this 'transracialism' become a thing?