Which way would you vote in an EU referendum?

[free spirit]

What energy? I've not argued for any energy to be put into any campaign - my only post on this thread about energy was to say the sort of localist stuff i've long encouraged is what will be needed to develop international links post eu-collapse. You're assuming far too much - either from not reading the thread, reading it backwards.

so you intended your first post on this thread to indicate that you weren't arguing for any energy to be put into any campaign on the issue?

Fuck yeah.

Forget the ultra-left nonsense that we don't take part in bosses battles - look at it as if a boss is trying to reorganise your workplace, or a council reorganise your area. When does it become your battle? When the bosses give you the go-ahead?

Maybe it's just me, but that looked a little overenthusiastic for someone just intending to put a cross in a box. Or is your talk of battles purely rhetorical?

 

[butchersapron]

ok, so nothing to do with the EU then, so leaving the EU wouldn't help change that policy.

Thanks for the clarification - I had to say insinuating as I'm having to read between the lines to work out wtf you're actually getting at in your posts.


I don't see that it's working for anyone, although the ultra rich have been able to make a killing from QE and bank bailouts, an austerity policy that kills the economy is bad for business, and bad for capital as well as being bad for those stuck on the dole.


thanks for that.

You asked me in what way the UK leaving the eu could help break austerity in europe. I told you. You reply by saying that the uk leaving the eu wouldn't change austerity here? Why did you do that?

I think breaking austerity in europe is quite important as it goes.

It's working fine for those who have designed the eu and used the crisis to force their vision even further down europes throat - the state we are now at becomes the norm, that's part of the shake-out. That's working. But maybe, we can campaign to change the inherent dynamics of a capitalist bloc in competition with the rest of the world. Maybe if we ask nicely enough.

 

[butchersapron]

so you intended your first post on this thread to indicate that you weren't arguing for any energy to be put into any campaign on the issue?



Maybe it's just me, but that looked a little overenthusiastic for someone just intending to put a cross in a box. Or is your talk of battles purely rhetorical?

It's a thread about voting. If i were arguing anymore maybe i would have done so, maybe suggested ways to organise street voting committees or set up meetings. That said, i will and am happy to organise meetings and discussions about this - interesting isse that people seem to care about, lots of relevant stuff for pro-w/c types. Maybe i could do that without spending 100% of my time doing it and trying to get others to spend 100% of their time doing the same. I've clarified this three times now - next time anyone posts oh so you'd really want people to waste all their time on an anti-eu campaign i'll just direct them here

 

[sihhi]

Other people than the EU do austerity? Whoah!!

I'm glad that you've edited your last line - it's still wrong. Identifying what may happen in the current conditions of our weakness is exactly as fanciful as saying hey let's break the eu from within through our anti-austerity struggle. And one is closer to happening than the other.

Fine - it's not stagism, it's wildly hypothesising on potential stages which aren't even as solid as a 'national lberation' stage or a 'democratic revolution' stage.
Let's admit your scenario of reconfiguration requires a hell of a lot of things to go right and nothing at all to go wrong - (just like Tariq Ali conceived the USSR's reconfiguration of the Warsaw Pact in 1988 being a wonderful opportunity for the pan-European working-class. It looked like it on the surface but things didn't work out that way). On that basis I'd be yes to withdrawal, as I'd've been 'no' to Heath's entry and no in Wilson's referendum.
But given our weakness, whatever happens will be to our detriment, however much of an anti-EU trade union supported PCS RMT FBU campaign with Bob Crow and Ricky Tomlinson there is, feels another excuse for trade unions to waste money away (on both sides, for no good reason IMO). I think the TUC would be split BTW - what do you think?

 

[butchersapron]

Fine - it's not stagism, it's wildly hypothesising on potential stages which aren't even as solid as a 'national lberation' stage or a 'democratic revolution' stage.
Let's admit your scenario of reconfiguration requires a hell of a lot of things to go right and nothing at all to go wrong - (just like Tariq Ali conceived the USSR's reconfiguration of the Warsaw Pact in 1988 being a wonderful opportunity for the pan-European working-class. It looked like it on the surface but things didn't work out that way). On that basis I'd be yes to withdrawal, as I'd've been 'no' to Heath's entry and no in Wilson's referendum.
But given our weakness, whatever happens will be to our detriment, however much of an anti-EU trade union supported PCS RMT FBU campaign with Bob Crow and Ricky Tomlinson there is, feels another excuse for trade unions to waste money away (on both sides, for no good reason IMO). I think the TUC would be split BTW - what do you think?

Absolutely they would - for a second, then the TUC unions would pull behind the EU (and ETUC).

 

[free spirit]

You asked me in what way the UK leaving the eu could help break austerity in europe. I told you. You reply by saying that the uk leaving the eu wouldn't change austerity here? Why did you do that?

I asked one question, your answer was oblique, so I asked another slightly different question to try to work out what you were on about, the answer to which is the answer you're confused about.

As far as I can see the UK leaving the EU would neither have any impact on UK austerity measures, nor on austerity measures within the EU, which I now think you agree with....

Therefore in or out of the EU is really an irrelevance to ridding the UK and Europe of the disasterous austerity policies, which to me should be the priority.

I think breaking austerity in europe is quite important as it goes.

It's working fine for those who have designed the eu and used the crisis to force their vision even further down europes throat - the state we are now at becomes the norm, that's part of the shake-out. That's working.

really, you reckon even they think it's working?

But maybe, we can campaign to change the inherent dynamics of a capitalist bloc in competition with the rest of the world. Maybe if we ask nicely enough.

I can't remember recommending we asked nicely, just pointing out that campaigning to pull out of the EU would take energy out of the campaign to end the austerity measures, as well as compounding the problems from austerity by causing complete chaos for all trading relationships across Europe if successful, and a long period of uncertainty in the run up to any referendum.

Put simply, it's the wrong answer to the wrong question at the wrong time.

 

[sihhi]

I suppose the one reason I'd be OK about voting yes to the referendum would be to squeeze the Green Party (pro-EU in general presumably pro-EU in such a referendum) into a position of irrelevance and replace their stuff with a shift up the discussion of other anti-austerity and anti-EU ideas ie leftist ones.
Even this is probably wishful thinking though.

I'm going to try and ask what some Greeks think the British working-class should do.

 

[Fez909]

really, you reckon even they think it's working?

I don't want to speak for butchers, but I'm guessing he means that corporations are getting record profits and are sitting on piles of cash, while having an army of unemployed people to pick their labour from, while driving down wages for those actually in employment.

In that sense, austerity is working.

 

[butchersapron]

I asked one question, your answer was oblique, so I asked another slightly different question to try to work out what you were on about, the answer to which is the answer you're confused about.

Hang on, let's get this right - you asked me one question. I directly answered it (and pointed out that i had never said anything like what you suggested). You didn't ask me another question. You made some irrelevant comment - why you asked it is what confused me. And apparently you as you can't explain why.

 

[butchersapron]

I asked one question, your answer was oblique, so I asked another slightly different question to try to work out what you were on about, the answer to which is the answer you're confused about.

As far as I can see the UK leaving the EU would neither have any impact on UK austerity measures, nor on austerity measures within the EU, which I now think you agree with....

Therefore in or out of the EU is really an irrelevance to ridding the UK and Europe of the disasterous austerity policies, which to me should be the priority.




really, you reckon even they think it's working?


I can't remember recommending we asked nicely, just pointing out that campaigning to pull out of the EU would take energy out of the campaign to end the austerity measures, as well as compounding the problems from austerity by causing complete chaos for all trading relationships across Europe if successful, and a long period of uncertainty in the run up to any referendum.

Put simply, it's the wrong answer to the wrong question at the wrong time.

I explained how i saw uk pullout of the euro potentially impacting on the eu as whole and then on austerity across europe - and you call this "an irrelevance to ridding the UK and Europe of the disasterous austerity policies,". Put your reading glasses on - disagree, fine, but at least read what i've wrote.

Yes i do. Or at least, they are in a situation to further push their plans in the middle of all this 'not working'.

Why make that point to me who didn't argue to take anti-austerity energy and use it on anti-eu energy?

 

[free spirit]

It's a thread about voting. If i were arguing anymore maybe i would have done so, maybe suggested ways to organise street voting committees or set up meetings. That said, i will and am happy to organise meetings and discussions about this - interesting isse that people seem to care about, lots of relevant stuff for pro-w/c types. Maybe i could do that without spending 100% of my time doing it and trying to get others to spend 100% of their time doing the same. I've clarified this three times now - next time anyone posts oh so you'd really want people to waste all their time on an anti-eu campaign i'll just direct them here

lol - so I had it right from the start, but you still felt the need to argue the toss because you'd not specifically outlined that you intended to do anything other than put a cross in a box. Classic

I also wasn't just referring just to you, but to everyone of an anti-austerity mindset who's efforts might get diverted into an anti-EU campaign.

You're making up that 100% of their time / all their time btw, it ain't what I said.

better to focus on opposing austerity across the EU rather than diverting lots of effort into trying to leave the EU as part of a largely right wing campaign - nothing good is going to come from us leaving the EU due to a UKIP led campaign IMO.

 

[sihhi]

Absolutely they would - for a second, then the TUC unions would pull behind the EU (and ETUC).

I worry about the waste of resources. Jon Snow was anti-Europe back in 1975 and he spoke of how even though there was less money in the NO campaign, all of it came from trade unions, and it still got wasted badly, while the YES campaign was much more professional.

ETUC with John Monks in 2010 at the TUC:

Despite setbacks and inadequacies, always remember that the European Union has great potential for good. Almost unique in the world, the drive for economic growth and profit is tempered by strong welfare states, public services and influential trade unions.
The European model is vastly superior for the workers of the world to the Americanised, neo-liberal model which has been so dominant in the past 30 years; and it is also superior to our British model. It is more equal and we must promote it here and throughout the world.
That's why the UK trade unions must never turn their back on Europe. If Europe succeeds, we must be part of it. And if it fails, we are affected, like it or not.
If you doubt that, go to the many moving British and Commonwealth cemeteries on the Somme, in Normandy and elsewhere, and tell the rows of headstones that Britain has no place in Europe.

Promote the European model by smashing the European model (as far as it ever existed) in Europe and ensuring it can never rise up anywhere out of Europe!

 

[butchersapron]

lol - so I had it right from the start, but you still felt the need to argue the toss because you'd not specifically outlined that you intended to do anything other than put a cross in a box. Classic

I also wasn't just referring just to you, but to everyone of an anti-austerity mindset who's efforts might get diverted into an anti-EU campaign.

You're making up that 100% of their time / all their time btw, it ain't what I said.

better to focus on opposing austerity across the EU rather than diverting lots of effort into trying to leave the EU as part of a largely right wing campaign - nothing good is going to come from us leaving the EU due to a UKIP led campaign IMO.

Er, you've just fucked yourself - either i did say we should be "diverting lots of effort" into leaving the EU or i didn't. You can't have it both ways. And when you say that i did, me saying that i didn't isn't "arguing the toss".

 

[butchersapron]

I worry about the waste of resources. Jon Snow was anti-Europe back in 1975 and he spoke of how even though there was less money in the NO campaign, all of it came from trade unions, and it still got wasted badly, while the YES campaign was much more professional.

ETUC with John Monks in 2010 at the TUC:

Despite setbacks and inadequacies, always remember that the European Union has great potential for good. Almost unique in the world, the drive for economic growth and profit is tempered by strong welfare states, public services and influential trade unions.
The European model is vastly superior for the workers of the world to the Americanised, neo-liberal model which has been so dominant in the past 30 years; and it is also superior to our British model. It is more equal and we must promote it here and throughout the world.
That's why the UK trade unions must never turn their back on Europe. If Europe succeeds, we must be part of it. And if it fails, we are affected, like it or not.
If you doubt that, go to the many moving British and Commonwealth cemeteries on the Somme, in Normandy and elsewhere, and tell the rows of headstones that Britain has no place in Europe.

Promote the European model by smashing the European model (as far as it ever existed) in Europe and ensuring it can never rise up anywhere out of Europe!

That is astonishing on so many levels . I want to laugh but it doesn't feel right.

 

[sihhi]

causing complete chaos for all trading relationships across Europe if successful, and a long period of uncertainty in the run up to any referendum.

This is like the one of the few goods thing about it.
Real uncertainty for them is good, gives us time to carry on anti-austerity while they fight amongst themselves.
Discredit yourselves (UKIP and Labour centre) as much as you can.
'Eat one another' as a local saying goes. I just hope they do.

 

[free spirit]

Hang on, let's get this right - you asked me one question. I directly answered it (and pointed out that i had never said anything like what you suggested). You didn't ask me another question. You made some irrelevant comment - why you asked it is what confused me. And apparently you as you can't explain why.

let me point you to where I explained this in my post

I'm sure I've missed the nuances of your position btw, but that's down to your oblique posting style.

I should have just stuck to my original plan of posting 'wtf are you on about' but I thought I'd have a stab at interpreting it instead.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh then that this appeared before your second claimed question - the one which doesn't exist. You asked me one question. I directly answered it (and pointed out that i had never said anything like what you suggested). You didn't ask me another question. You made some irrelevant comment - why you asked it is what confused me. And apparently you as you still can't explain why. 6 pages of people going wtf at me rather than fast paced aggressive FUN! informed debate and you'd have a point - did you see that? Did you see that happening for 6 pages steve!!?

 

[sihhi]

That is astonishing on so many levels . I want to laugh but it doesn't feel right.

This bit - yes?

If Europe succeeds, we must be part of it. And if it fails, we are affected, like it or not. If you doubt that, go to the many moving British and Commonwealth cemeteries on the Somme, in Normandy and elsewhere, and tell the rows of headstones that Britain has no place in Europe.

Head of the British working-class opposition to both Major and Blair as secretary of the TUC for just over 10 years.

 

[free spirit]

This is like the one of the few goods thing about it.
Real uncertainty for them is good, gives us time to carry on anti-austerity while they fight amongst themselves.
Discredit yourselves (UKIP and Labour centre) as much as you can.
'Eat one another' as a local saying goes. I just hope they do.

in political terms maybe, but in real life terms I reckon most people would prefer not to have a 3 year long period of uncertainty and loss of inward investment / jobs to deal with just to appease UKIP / the tory nutters. Not after 5-6 years of depression already.

even in political terms that only works if those who should be campaigning on austerity don't get sucked into wasting time campaigning one way or the other on an EU referendum, which we likely will to some extent.

 

[sihhi]

in political terms maybe, but in real life terms I reckon most people would prefer not to have a 3 year long period of uncertainty and loss of inward investment / jobs to deal with just to appease UKIP / the tory nutters. Not after 5-6 years of depression already.

Where does 3 years come from?

even in political terms that only works if those who should be campaigning on austerity don't get sucked into wasting time campaigning one way or the other on an EU referendum, which we likely will to some extent.

Speak for yourself. I trust ba when he says he won't be devoting more than a slither of time to the EU, but you can't seem to believe hm for some reason?

 

[butchersapron]

This bit - yes?



Head of the British working-class opposition to both Major and Blair as secretary of the TUC for just over 10 years.

Yep, that bit. I met him very briefly in the early 90s when he was schmoozing other union votes/links. That seemed to be all he was after.

 

[free spirit]

Oh then that this appeared before your second claimed question - the one which doesn't exist. You asked me one question. I directly answered it (and pointed out that i had never said anything like what you suggested). You didn't ask me another question.

question 1

in what way do you think that britain leaving the EU would change that?

question 2

To clarify, are you insinuating that the UK position on austerity is anything other than a voluntary position?

this is getting a bit boring now mind.

 

[free spirit]

Where does 3 years come from?

the next election is in 2015, the referendum is apparently to be after the next election, so probably 2016, and we're now in 2013...

Speak for yourself. I trust ba when he says he won't be devoting more than a slither of time to the EU, but you can't seem to believe hm for some reason?

those who should be campaigning on austerity

As I'm not expecting butchersapron to campaign against austerity by himself, it should be pretty obvious that my point isn't and never has been specifically referring to butchersapron alone, despite him appearing determined to make it all about him.

 

[butchersapron]

question 1

question 2

this is getting a bit boring now mind.

OK, fair play there was a second question - like the first immediately and directly answered. It was the third response of yours that caused trouble -then your connetected fourth - the one where, after me explaining to you how i saw UK withdrawal from the eu effecting eu austerity you told that you were glad i agreed that UK withdrawal could do no such thing.

But then, i've just been posting mad oblique wtf shit all thread. Who could blame you for coming up the the opposite view to what i argued?

 

[free spirit]

the one where, after me explaining to you how i saw UK withdrawal from the eu effecting eu austerity you told that you were glad i agreed that UK withdrawal could do no such thing.

I've just been back through your posts, and I honestly can't see you saying anything like that.

Unless that's what you meant in this post

And thanks for thinking so internationally - we're already doing austerity but we're not in the eu so you know, they've obviously very different and totally separate things that could not ever impact on each other.

That's exactly what it means - it has shown itself to be a spur to and a whip-holder for those bad things. A nice little oh they must not do that (despite writing that they must into their constitution) is worthless. That's the 'reality of the situation'.

But then, i've just been posting mad oblique wtf shit all thread. Who could blame you for coming up the the opposite view to what i argued?

see the post quoted above.

 

[butchersapron]

I've just been back through your posts, and I honestly can't see you saying anything like that.

Unless that's what you meant in this post



see the post quoted above.

No?

Of course it's like a boss trying to reorganise your workplace, it's worse, it's them trying to reorganise your hospitals, your education, your leisure - that literally is what they are trying to do. That's why they exist - what else other than the above are they doing? How else are they going to compete with the US and Asia other than by doing just that? By increasing productivity, by cutting down workforces, by cutting down social spending, by forcing individuals to bear previously social costs.

I think UK withdrawal would kill the EU, and i think the death of the EU would kill the form of austerity the EU/IMF/ECB are pursuing right now stone dead, yes. That's a better vista than waiting for a pro-european/anti-eu europe wide left to slowly gain influence.

Mad oblique wtf shit.

 

[free spirit]

nah that's pretty clear. Fucking nuts, but pretty clear.

we're in a massive 5 year old most of a continent depression with harsh austerity measures making a bad situation worse, so what we should do about it is to cause complete chaos by causing a 60 year old trading block to implode, most of the countries of which have a shared currency.

still, at least we'd soon be back to the old ways of armed conflict etc which usually tends to sort out the economy and unemployment situation.


eta - well, nuts unless you're aiming at the idea that from the ashes would rise some form of europe wide anarchist / socialist revolution, but right now facism would look to be in the stronger position to take advantage of the situation in much of europe.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Currently spoiled, persuadable either way.

I can not assent to anti-democratic neo liberalism, but I am loathe to help give victory to another camp who are swarming with neo liberals and xenophobes.

anyhow, any vote is probably 3 years off so the current media froth is just more smokescreen from bank crime, general corruption, psychopathy, suicidal misery etc.

 

[butchersapron]

Not all about you mate.

 

[stuff_it]

Close enough, I think.

Cameron has promised to renegotiate the terms that Britain has to abide by to be in the EU. He hasn't said what he wants, but there's vague hints of repatriation of powers and perhaps paying less into it. OK so far?

He's said that once he knows what the EU can offer us, then he'll put this to the country to see if we want to leave. This will happen after the next election.

Where am I misunderstanding there?

That he thinks he will get re-elected.