Where can I find the Hateful 8?

[Orang Utan]

Well, I don't buy it. He clearly gets off on it

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I think the above is fair, more than fair in fact. I accept it was a bit cringey in Reservoir Dogs but I expect characters like that to be vile. The bit in True Romance I think is truly vile but well in context. I can't think of a more brutal way to insult a nailed on member of the Sicilian mafia than to say they descend from 'niggers' to say the man's mother fucked one is the icing on that insult's cake. It's horrible for us to hear, it's horrible to use as an insult but in the context of that film, that story and at that particular scene it's gruesomely spot on. I mean it kinda makes your ears themselves whince but that's the point!

What someone criticising him for that is basically saying is that he, as a white person, is not allowed to make films with black characters from rough neighbourhoods who talk like that.

And yes, OU, I'm using 'not allowed' in the sense that he'll be told he shouldn't be doing it.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I think the above QT quote is fair, more than fair in fact. I accept it was a bit cringey in Reservoir Dogs but I expect characters like that to be vile. The bit in True Romance I think is truly vile but well in context. I can't think of a more brutal way to insult a nailed on member of the Sicilian mafia than to say they descend from 'niggers' to say the man's mother fucked one is the icing on that insult's cake. It's horrible for us to hear, it's horrible to use as an insult but in the context of that film, that story and at that particular scene it's gruesomely spot on. I mean it kinda makes your ears themselves whince but that's the point!

That response from QT doesn't hold up to the Hateful 8...all the characters using it repeatedly, are White.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That response from QT doesn't hold up to the Hateful 8...all the characters using it repeatedly, are White.

Yep. Racist white people using racist language. It does hold up, surely: racist white people would use racist language.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

That response from QT doesn't hold up to the Hateful 8...all the characters using it repeatedly, are White.

Yeah, read the thread we already discussed that point and its use by white people in Django.

 

[Orang Utan]

What someone criticising him for that is basically saying is that he, as a white person, is not allowed to make films with black characters from rough neighbourhoods who talk like that.

And yes, OU, I'm using 'not allowed' in the sense that he'll be told he shouldn't be doing it.

Incorrectly then

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Incorrectly then

Not really. This is saying that there is appropriate subject matter for white directors and other subject matter that is only appropriate for black directors. Moreover, there are certain kinds of black characters that it is not appropriate for white directors to include in their films. Essentially, what this is saying is that a white director in the US can't make films encompassing the fullest range of contemporary US life.

So what is Tarantino to do? If he wishes to portray the margins of society, he has to lie and either not include black characters or have those characters talk in a way that is not true to life. The effect of that would be to exclude representation of a particular class of people by anyone other than (normally middle-class, like Spike Lee) black directors.

 

[Orang Utan]

For the third time, I shall link to that article noone seems to have read:
‘The Hateful Eight’ Is a Hellish Journey into Quentin Tarantino's Psyche | VICE | United States
It also links to some good pieces:
Tarantino Unchained - The New Yorker
Surviving "Django"

 

[ska invita]

I think Bell was fine in this. Yes, her mood/accent/behaviour is completely at odds with everyone else's, but that happens. A couple of moments of light relief before the inevitable starts (again). Hearing such accent sin the wild west does sound immediately wrong (as QT's did in Django) but it is perfectly historically supportable.

she breaks the spell though...which happens a lot in the film...often consciously.... i find it jarring

And what was the point in telling the story of the New Zealand girl who could drive a team of six when she was immediately to be killed anyhow?

Shes a real stuntwoman who is in a previous QT film and he was having fun including her in this - it all felt very pally to me and for the fun of QT.

What someone criticising him for that is basically saying is that he, as a white person, is not allowed to make films with black characters from rough neighbourhoods who talk like that.

As Ive said its not about allowing, its about proportion and writing credible characters - Tarantinos own voice and handywork just comes out too much

Yes, I agree about where T's sympathies lie, but that comes out from the work itself, no? Do we need to know who the writer/maker is before we can judge?

Its very much is with QT as his ego, personality and own voice looms large in his films - he puts himself firmly in the films, whereas otehr filmamkers are more dispassionate, or better at presenting a story that at least appears objective. His films are totally subjective to him. That makes for a storng voice and I think interesting films, but it comes at a price too....

 

[Orang Utan]

Not really. This is saying that there is appropriate subject matter for white directors and other subject matter that is only appropriate for black directors. Moreover, there are certain kinds of black characters that it is not appropriate for white directors to include in their films. Essentially, what this is saying is that a white director in the US can't make films encompassing the fullest range of contemporary US life.

So what is Tarantino to do? If he wishes to portray the margins of society, he has to lie and either not include black characters or have those characters talk in a way that is not true to life. The effect of that would be to exclude representation of a particular class of people by anyone other than (normally middle-class, like Spike Lee) black directors.

No. I was again taking issue by you saying QT wasn't allowed to make such films when he has. It's bullshit to say he isn't allowed to make them, yet you keep saying it.

 

[belboid]

For the third time, I shall link to that article noone seems to have read:
‘The Hateful Eight’ Is a Hellish Journey into Quentin Tarantino's Psyche | VICE | United States
It also links to some good pieces:
Tarantino Unchained - The New Yorker
Surviving "Django"

that Vice piece really isn't very good - the line "Such consistency [two black characters being violently assaulted more than twenty years apart] in content suggests that Tarantino has an irresistible thing for punishing his black male characters lest they get too cocksure." is just rubbish.

That QT is a cocky ass, who probably does think he is an honorary black man, is true. Irritating, maybe, but no worse than that. And his use of racial epithets is, overwhelmingly, apposite.

 

[belboid]

she breaks the spell though...which happens a lot in the film...often consciously.... i find it jarring

as you say, it is one of several occasions when the spell (the main spell?) is broken. It's one of the things he does, and she wasn't the most jarring by any means, I didn't think. That honour would go to the vomiting scene.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

For the third time, I shall link to that article noone seems to have read:
‘The Hateful Eight’ Is a Hellish Journey into Quentin Tarantino's Psyche | VICE | United States
It also links to some good pieces:
Tarantino Unchained - The New Yorker
Surviving "Django"

Read the first one. I think the author is wide of the mark in a few cases - on Django, how does he think the word was over-used? Does he wish the white slave-owners could have been a little less racist? Same criticism of his criticism of Hateful8 - at every point the word is used, its use reinforces the racist nature of the character using it. This writer seems to have that about-face to me.

Also he's factually incorrect here in trying to make a point:

The film's nadir is a gruesomely protracted sequence that culminates in the graphic murders of three women, among them two indefensible black caricatures: a sassy "mammy" and a chicken-plucking "maid."

Nope. The graphic murders are not just of these three women, and they're not even all murdered in the same bit of the film. To pick these murders out from all the other murders is dishonest writing, imo.

 

[Orang Utan]

Well I think it's spot on, as are two articles it links to, as well as that Gawker article.

 

[Orang Utan]

as you say, it is one of several occasions when the spell (the main spell?) is broken. It's one of the things he does, and she wasn't the most jarring by any means, I didn't think. That honour would go to the vomiting scene.

I thought the vomiting scene was hilarious

 

[littlebabyjesus]

that Vice piece really isn't very good - the line "Such consistency [two black characters being violently assaulted more than twenty years apart] in content suggests that Tarantino has an irresistible thing for punishing his black male characters lest they get too cocksure." is just rubbish.

Yep. He's carrying out some extreme cherry-picking to make a case that simply isn't there.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Some bizarre pickyness on this thread over what is a great film. He does indulge himself - and why not?.

I saw it at the odeon in leic sq, it's worth seeing it in the cinema on a big screen with a decent sound system for the score.

 

[belboid]

Well I think it's spot on, as are two articles it links to, as well as that Gawker article.

you think its spot on, despite a number of clear and unambiguous falsehoods contained in it? hmmm...

The New Yorker piece has an interesting paragraph on Stephen, which makes good points, but says very little about use of the n word. And the Buzzfeed piece seems more concerned about how mostly white audiences react to its use, rather than its use itself. Now that [the audiences reaction] is an interesting point to make, and you can easily see where the writer is coming from, but I dont think it really undermines QT's use of the word.

 

[weltweit]

Some bizarre pickyness on this thread over what is a great film. He does indulge himself - and why not?. ..

Why do you think it is a great film. I really didn't think so.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

As Ive said its not about allowing, its about proportion and writing credible characters - Tarantinos own voice and handywork just comes out too much

.

This is fair enough. All the characters do tend to speak with one voice - his. But that's a criticism of QT as a writer, no, which is fine, but a different point.

 

[Treacle Toes]

This is fair enough. All the characters do tend to speak with one voice - his. But that's a criticism of QT as a writer, no, which is fine, but a different point.

But it isn't is it? All the points being made here are the details of why people believe his mono-voice writing doesn't work.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But it isn't is it? All the points being made here are the details of why may people believe his mono-voice writing doesn't work.

I think that's a stretch, tbh.

It's also a bit of an impossible ask - if criticism of the use of language stems from QT's perceived failure to write a script in which each character has their own voice, that sets up an unfair standard, I think: you can do it, but only if you do it better than you're currently doing it.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Why do you think it is a great film. I really didn't think so.

The plot is good - I was wondering who in on it until late, the characters are good, Goggins especially. The score is excellent.

 

[ska invita]

Nigger remains possibly the most offensive word in English. If you are going to have characters saying it, often, then you need to show care and necessity. Because QTs characters come across as conduits for his voice it becomes hard to believe in the characters saying it, who may well be justified in the context of the story... Instead you end up thinking, stop swearing QT!

It's partly to do with the pantomime tone... The great villains of cinema feel like real people, and if they swear a lot you believe Them. Ben Kingsley in sexy beast for example. Something about QT that you don't ever totally buy in to it... And that makes the use of the word so much more problematic. It's quite a subtle thing, but I think people pick up on that, even if they don't quite know why.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Nigger remains possibly the most offensive word in English. If you are going to have characters saying it, often, then you need to show care and necessity. Because QTs characters come across as conduits for his voice it becomes hard to believe in the characters saying it, who may well be justified in the context of the story... Instead you end up thinking, stop swearing QT!

This is perhaps where we'll need to agree to disagree because, in the two historical films at least, Django and Hateful8, I do think he shows that care and necessity. I'd go as far as to say that its use in Django is essential. It is far from careless or gratuitous - it forms an integral part of the film's moral structure.

Point here I would make about Django is that the slave-owners' use of this and only this word to refer to their slaves serves not to dehumanise the slaves, but to dehumanise the slave-owners. I think it's really rather clever.

 

[belboid]

I think that's a stretch, tbh.

It's also a bit of an impossible ask - if criticism of the use of language stems from QT's perceived failure to write a script in which each character has their own voice, that sets up an unfair standard, I think: you can do it, but only if you do it better than you're currently doing it.

not quite sure I follow your point here. Every character should have their own voice, it's poor writing if they dont. But QT does generally achieve this, within each film, you're not going to mistake Jackson's character for Goggins' or Russels, or especially not Madsen's. He clearly does often write with Jackson in mind as his lead character tho, and his voices are very similar, but that is something of an exception.

I do agree with you re its use in Django in particular, and i think that one of the main reasons it does sometimes sound wrong in the way ska is saying is simply because we almost never ever hear it used in film/tv, it's use is immediately noticeable and can be jarring. Even cunt is used more regularly, and that is usually held up as the most objectionable word in English.

 

[ebonics]

I think it's a bit rich to suggest that QT's deliberate [over]use of the word "nigger" is out of some sense of verisimilitude -- as if "reality" is something he's remotely known for or interested in. His scripts are not transcriptions. We're not looking at found footage, here. QT is nothing if not a purposeful auteur. And he purposefully writes, crafts, and casts lurid, B movie-style action set pieces that are meant to provoke a response. His characters are awesomely entertaining to watch, but they're like sockpuppets. Personally, I love most of the byzantine-ass speechifying: but at no point have I ever been so transported that I forgot I was watching a movie. QT, the writer, never fades into the background. I think that the author of that Vice piece is right on: Jackie Brown is one of QT's most understated offerings, and also one of his best. Perhaps because the source material was not his own, and it largely resisted his bombastic handwaving?


Anyway, for me, his use of the word "nigger" is absolutely of a piece with the shocking violence -- and I think that QT groks that, but is also convinced that he's a better filmmaker than he actually is, with the ability to dictate how his characters and their speech will be received. That is, I think he DOES care whether he's perceived as a down-ass white dude.

This thread has been super interesting to follow, because I absolutely do surrender to American solipsism and forget that international audiences (even English-speaking ones) come to any text with an entirely different set of ears.

Signed,
A black American woman who doesn't speak for anyone else but who's thrown off by QT's use of the word "nigger" every goddammit time even though I should be prepared for it by now

 

[ska invita]

This is perhaps where we'll need to agree to disagree because, in the two historical films at least, Django and Hateful8, I do think he shows that care and necessity. I'd go as far as to say that its use in Django is essential. It is far from careless or gratuitous - it forms an integral part of the film's moral structure.

Point here I would make about Django is that the slave-owners' use of this and only this word to refer to their slaves serves not to dehumanise the slaves, but to dehumanise the slave-owners. I think it's really rather clever.

Agree that its essential within the subject matter, and so agree its use is justified, but I think theres just something about the way he makes films that makes it jarring. Its really complex - i dont totally know exactly what I think about it - but on Django he hasnt made a film like 12 Year A Slave, which treats the subject with gravitas. He doesn't make his characters believable, in the sense they are real people who might have existed. The tone can be humorous - darkly so, but still humorous. And it makes it all confusing, and makes the grounds of justification feel rocky. And Im with OU that he gets a buzz out of it, and that comes across - rather than feeling the weight of racial oppression on his shoulders...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Jackie Brown is one of QT's most understated offerings, and also one of his best. Perhaps because the source material was not his own, and it largely resisted his bombastic handwaving?

Agree with you on this. I think JB is my favourite Tarantino film.

 

[ebonics]

Think I might go watch it again right now! Pam Grier is just...God, that woman.