When life imitates art!

[Reno]

The actors entire job is to point guns and pretend to fire them at people. Systems should be in place to ensure this takes place safely.

Here a great many people have fucked up.

Reading some of the papers this morning I was thrown by the explanation of a prop gun as being one that can fire both live and fake ammunition because what the fuck that sounds more like an actual gun than anything you'd use as a prop.

Prop guns can be real guns, if used in film, tv or on stage, any item becomes a prop.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Prop guns can be real guns, if used in film, tv or on stage, any item becomes a prop.

True but it's not something I can get my head around because I assume guns are dangerous fucking things. Gives real cognitive dissonance.

It's still a real gun. I'm not going to label it as a prop.

 

[Orang Utan]

I would have thought they would add the gunshot noises in foley?

 

[Reno]

I would have thought they would add the gunshot noises in foley?

It's because of the gunfire rather than because of the noise. That can be added in post production but it costs money this film seems to have had a low budget.

 

[redcogs]

No insurance company would insure a film production if actors were allowed to check a weapon themselves, as that is potentially dangerous. Any aspect of a professional film production has to be insured for it to go ahead. That's why they are supposed to employ a weapons expert to check the weapons before they are used.

i was arguing that checking the gun yourself before pointing it at anyone is a sensible additional safeguard (additional to all the other checks that have been undertaken by the trained experts). It takes seconds only..

 

[Mation]

Having someone check that the weapon isn't live is one measure, but from that article it sounds like the crew not being in the line of fire is another, independent of the first.

So there are two critical failures, at least, aren't there? The gun was live, and it was discharged when people were in range.

Is there any reason why an actor would have to have a gun in hand while the shot (as in camera angle etc) is lined up? What's the point of having two measures if they're not enacted independently?

In other words, presumably the crew was supposed to retreat in case something went wrong with declaring the safe status of the gun. So why involve the gun before they've retreated? The whole thing seems fucked up.

 

[redcogs]

All the individual and systemic failures which preceded the end user Baldwin's fatal shot do mean that culpability is wide. But a significant part of that culpability rests with Baldwin - and any attempt to remove his responsibility from the overall complexity would be ludicrous wouldn't it? Surely any court case/enquiry would recognise this and would recommend appropriate end user checks, as a final safeguard against tragedy.

What would be unacceptable is any scapegoating outcome that solely found the armourer (for example) to be responsible.

i imagine all involved will feel pretty desperate and regretful about the many missed opportunities to prevent this incident, but none so anguished as the bereaved. Very very sad.

 

[xenon]

why the fuck are there live guns, guns with live ammunition, on set anyway.

 

[Saul Goodman]

why the fuck are there live guns, guns would live ammunition, onset anyway.

In case anybody gets stage happy.

 

[xenon]

In case anybody gets stage happy.

oh I didn’t realise it was the latest Pirates of the Caribbean.

 

[DaveCinzano]

I feel it is very important that all of us with zero experience of on-set firearm safety procedures and movie production insurance underwriting continue to talk over the person with experience of on-set firearm safety procedures and movie production insurance underwriting, because for all we know he could be the dangerous svengali behind this whole incident.

Next week's schedule: solving global climate change (Monday & Tuesday), balancing the books (Wednesday & Thursday - North America, Western Europe; Friday morning - rest of the world), long lunch, early weekend

 

[8ball]

True but it's not something I can get my head around because I assume guns are dangerous fucking things. Gives real cognitive dissonance.

It's still a real gun. I'm not going to label it as a prop.

For some shots (pun not really intended), the best way of emulating a gunshot is with a gun. There are varying degrees of modification that guns may undergo when used as props, and sometimes it’s just a matter of a gun with a blank round.

If a photo-realistic replica can be used for the job, it almost certainly will be, and armourers are usually highly qualified.

There are lots of other very dangerous things that are done when making films. Guns are up there in terms of danger, but in terms of injuries and deaths they’re not close to the top, which is why everyone is drawing a parallel with what happened to Brandon Lee nearly 30 years ago.

In terms of the most dangerous things, helicopters are especially dicey (not necessarily the ones on film but also the ones that camera crew are filming from), as are vehicle stunts generally. There are lots you don’t even hear about because the people getting hurt are being paid to take that risk.

I don’t know that much about Baldwin, but I feel terrible for the guy, regardless of whether there was some handling error on his part.

 

[Dandred]

Why would they need to use a real gun thought, you'd have thought the pin would have been removed before hand.

 

[deeyo]

back in the thirties, live ammo was used all of the time, being cheaper & more 'functional' than blanks. cagney famously got shot at in public enemy (-31) almost got hit in taxi (-32)& escaped getting hit by refusing to 'stay in scene' during the filming of angels with dirty faces (-38). i think i've read somewhere that stuff like this was what prompted him to get involved with the new born actors union (sag) in -33, together with joan crawford, bela lugosi, the marx bros, boris karloff & others. reagan joined in -37.

kurusawa was pretty hardcore , firing wire-guided arrows at his star in throne of blood (-57) (more here)

the ap article below is an ambitious look into injuries & deaths during filming from 1990-2016 (at least 43 dead & >150 left with life-altering injuries in the us, investigations closed early, compensations disputed & never paid out...) the guardian piece adds a bit about shootings (not very common, as 8ball wrote)

AP: Too quiet on the set; filming accidents often go untold

LOS ANGELES (AP) — As hundreds of names scrolled up the screen after 2012's "The Avengers," moviegoers who remained glued to their seats for a taste of the next treat in Marvel's superhero universe didn't know one name was missing — that of John Suttles, a truck driver who died helping bring the $1.

apnews.com

‘No one should be killed on set’: tragic history of fatalities during filming

On-set deaths like Halyna Hutchins’ remain thankfully rare – but only one film director has been convicted in the US for such incidents

www.theguardian.com

 

[danski]

Surprised nobody has come up with the obvious solution. It’s clear where the problem lies so just ban films.

 

[nogojones]

I would have thought they would add the gunshot noises in foley?

A good actor would be able to make a convincing gunshot noise themselves

 

[Indeliblelink]

Surprised nobody has come up with the obvious solution. It’s clear where the problem lies so just ban films.

Wasn't someone killed in Russia by a falling piece of scenery last month? Best to ban plays/opera/ballet too.

 

[ricbake]

The projectile from the gun seems likely to have been a bullet, it penetrated that poor girl's chest and straight out her back into the Director's shoulder. A rogue blank or foreign object in the barrel would be less likely to have the ballistic capability to do that. If this is the case the question has to be why would there be a live round anywhere near the guns to be used for filming.
The project seems to have had a somewhat toxic atmosphere, complaints about safety and rushing, some of the crew having digs 50 miles away, complaining they hadn't been fully paid, rows about non Union staff replacing Union staff ordered off the ranch just hours before the incident...

Is it possible that one of the people with a grievance could have been sufficiently disgruntled to put a live bullet in a gun left out by the rookie armourer....

Life imitating art, will this turn into a murder mystery? I'd call in Colombo

 

[ricbake]

Less mysterious but how on earth could they be so stupid to leave a live round in a gun...

 

[DaveCinzano]

Surprised nobody has come up with the obvious solution. It’s clear where the problem lies so just ban films.

Surely what's needed is more good crew members with guns, in order to defend against bad ones? If the DP and director had both been packing then we'd be one step closer to achieving the global goal of Zero Baldwin

 

[Orang Utan]

The Frontline (think they’re a union organisation/campaigning group in the US) put out this statement, which is hard not for agree with:
“This is NOT an Alec Baldwin story, this is is a story about workplace safety. IATSE Local 600 DP, Halyna Hutchins, died today because she showed up to work. Her children were orphaned today because she showed up for work. She deserves more than a moment of silence. She deserves every crew member in this industry putting down their tools and walking off the job. Shut it down. This has to stop.

There have been other high-profile fatalities on film sets involving prop guns and sloppy safety measures.

In 1993, Brandon Lee, 28, son of the late martial-arts star Bruce Lee, died after being hit by a .44-caliber slug while filming a death scene for the movie “The Crow.” The gun was supposed to have fired a blank, but an autopsy turned up a bullet lodged near his spine.

Bruce Lee’s daughter, Shannon Lee, tweeted: “Our hearts go out to the family of Halyna Hutchins and to Joel Souza and all involved in the incident on “Rust.” No one should ever be killed by a gun on a film set. Period.”

In 1984, actor Jon-Erik Hexum died after shooting himself in the head with a prop gun blank while pretending to play Russian roulette with a .44 Magnum on the set of the television series “Cover Up.”

Serious and sometimes fatal film set accidents are rare but have increased in recent years.

A 38-year-old crew member last month sustained critical injuries after a major fall at Sunset Gower Studios in Hollywood during construction for the Netflix film “Me Time,” which stars Kevin Hart and Mark Wahlberg.

“The Walking Dead” stuntman John Bernecker died in 2017 from injuries sustained while filming a scene in Georgia for the AMC series’ eighth season.

In the same state, crew member Sarah Jones was killed in a 2014 train accident during the making of “Midnight Rider,” and her family was awarded $11.2 million after filing a wrongful-death lawsuit.

A year earlier, a helicopter pilot, camera operator and crew member were killed in a helicopter crash in Acton during the filming of a reality series for Discovery Channel, the worst film-set accident in California in three decades.

Every year crew members are killed falling asleep while driving home from outrageously long shoot days.

Nobody should have to die making Films and Television.

Thanks to Robert Daraio”

 

[WouldBe]

Why would they need to use a real gun thought, you'd have thought the pin would have been removed before hand.

You wouldn't be able to fire blanks if the pin was removed.

Best thing would be to have replica / modified guns that could only fire special sized blanks so a live round couldn't be put in the gun.

 

[Orang Utan]

It’s always worrying reading people on here talking so knowledgeably (or perhaps it’s just Mittyist bullshitting) about firearms

 

[Saul Goodman]

It’s always worrying reading people on here talking so knowledgeably (or perhaps it’s just Mittyist bullshitting) about firearms

It's hardly rocket science. Hammer hits pin. Pin hits percussion cap.. . Bang!

 

[8ball]

You wouldn't be able to fire blanks if the pin was removed.

Best thing would be to have replica / modified guns that could only fire special sized blanks so a live round couldn't be put in the gun.

These are used a lot. Can still kill if fired at close range at someone (see Jon-Erik Hepsum - though something of a Darwin award contender in that case).

If the story above is true about it being used recreationally with live rounds on or near set, a lot of heads need to roll.

Like many people, I had assumed this was a tragic accident with a blank as opposed to a live round.

 

[Orang Utan]

It's hardly rocket science. Hammer hits pin. Pin hits percussion cap.. . Bang!

surely if anything’s rocket science, it’s ballistics?

 

[8ball]

It’s always worrying reading people on here talking so knowledgeably (or perhaps it’s just Mittyist bullshitting) about firearms

There’s really almost no detail about firearms in this thread. Just some discussion of prop guns and why functional weapons are sometimes used, because some posters had questions.

As per your own post above, this really isn’t a gun issue, this is a workplace safety issue.

 

[Orang Utan]

There’s really almost no detail about firearms in this thread. Just some discussion of prop guns and why functional weapons are sometimes used, because some posters had questions.

As per your own post above, this really isn’t a gun issue, this is a workplace safety issue.

There’s plenty of detail unless you’re a gun nerd I guess

 

[Artaxerxes]

Less mysterious but how on earth could they be so stupid to leave a live round in a gun...

View attachment 294000

I'm wondering if its some sort of automatic, easy enough to leave a round in the chamber of one of those.

 

[ricbake]

They were filming a western, it was probably some form of 19C style colt 45