What's going on in the CIRCA thread?

[Zaskar]

I suggest you attmept to gather the facts for yourself, phone the CID bloke and judge for yourself.

I think you are going off on an activist rant a bit.... sorry .

I might try to get an interview with the police / train driver / pics of damage ect, but lots to do today.

Would that be of any help or would you then accuse me of 'making it all up' too?

As for the IM uk seizures, well I think you will agree that BIM aint UK IM for many reaons. I am sure the uk seizure was proviked by the upcoming esf but they also found pics that identified undervoder fbi agents, but I expect you think the police made that up too.


I dont know that much about the UK siezures, but please note that the police have not siezed the BIM drives, thay only want the IP or info leading to the IP of those the droppped the rocks.

It's really no big deal but I expect it will be to many.

edit

Occams razor and all that. Clearly if you have information that actually contradicts the reprted events it would be very interesting to see that. That really would be a story !

 

[gurrier]

I suggest you attmept to gather the facts for yourself, phone the CID bloke and judge for yourself.

I think you are going off on an activist rant a bit.... sorry .

I might try to get an interview with the police / train driver / pics of damage ect, but lots to do today.

Would that be of any help or would you then accuse me of 'making it all up' too?

As for the IM uk seizures, well I think you will agree that BIM aint UK IM for many reaons. I am sure the uk seizure was proviked by the upcoming esf but they also found pics that identified undervoder fbi agents, but I expect you think the police made that up too.


I dont know that much about the UK siezures, but please note that the police have not siezed the BIM drives, thay only want the IP or info leading to the IP of those the droppped the rocks.

Presumably you know well that IMC's do not keep IP addresses and so your 'intervention' was only likely to bring hassle to the people involved without protecting the public in any way. You presumably also know well that there is a very consistent record of police forces harrassing IMC's whenever given the opportunity to do so.

Your decision to go to the police has done exactly nothing to protect the public. What it has certainly done is cause a lot of hassle for the volunteers who run the IMC in question. I think it is clear from your attitude that you are not actually motivated by a desire to protect the public, but that you probably disagree with some of the policies of the IMC and are essentially using the state to fight your battle.

It's really no big deal but I expect it will be to many.

Yeah, those petty idiots who make a big deal of being harrassed and threatened by the cops! Those idiotic and petty volunteers who spend countless hours doing their best to create an open system of mass communication in the teeth of outright opposition by the state and might make a big deal of somebody who pretends to be on the left trying to get them shut down.

You are an arrogant authoritarian asshole and your pretence of being a concerned citizen rings so fucking hollow mate. Your sort really make me mad.

 

[Zaskar]

Presumably you know well that IMC's do not keep IP addresses and so your 'intervention' was only likely to bring hassle to the people involved without protecting the public in any way. You presumably also know well that there is a very consistent record of police forces harrassing IMC's whenever given the opportunity to do so.

Your decision to go to the police has done exactly nothing to protect the public. What it has certainly done is cause a lot of hassle for the volunteers who run the IMC in question. I think it is clear from your attitude that you are not actually motivated by a desire to protect the public, but that you probably disagree with some of the policies of the IMC and are essentially using the state to fight your battle.


Yeah, those petty idiots who make a big deal of being harrassed and threatened by the cops! Those idiotic and petty volunteers who spend countless hours doing their best to create an open system of mass communication in the teeth of outright opposition by the state and might make a big deal of somebody who pretends to be on the left trying to get them shut down.

You are an arrogant authoritarian asshole and your pretence of being a concerned citizen rings so fucking hollow mate. Your sort really make me mad.

I assure you my motivations are not as you say. You are mistaken on many points. Even if they didnt have the actual IP they could still help to track it. Given the seroiusness of the crime I am not suprised that the police wish to check the no ip info.

Soory you are mad, it seems to make you quite nasty.

edit 1253

As for bim getting hassle from the police, well i think you will find that is also an error on your part. They have over the last year or so recieved the odd solicitors letter but nothnig from the police. Sorry.

Also, I agree totally with all policies of the IM movement. Are you casting me as some sort of exciting double agent ? I assure you I really am rather dull.

 

[gurrier]

I assure you my motivations are not as you say. You are mistaken on many points. Even if they didnt have the actual IP they could still help to track it. Given the seroiusness of the crime I am not suprised that the police wish to check the no ip info.

Why didn't you allow them to make the choice about whether to help the police with their investigations? Like a good old fashioned authoritarian, _you_ decided that they should help the police - cos you know better don't you mate. Once again, can you tell me how exactly your actions have helped to protect the public? (since the police will presumably not get any information from the IMC) On the other hand, it is obviously the case that your actions have caused a lot of hassle for the IMC people. You should be proud of yourself mate.

And yes, people who do things like this to vulnerable volunteer services like the IMCs make me really fucking mad.

 

[Zaskar]

Glad you have calmed down a bit.

It's a judgement call for sure, I dont think the 'proper' course of action is a clear one. You may disagree as your decision is bound to be informed by your own particular set of values and ideals.

I took the view that after reading the reprt of the crime that I had become privvy to evidence of a seroius and pointless crime (by my own moral standards , sure). I was also told by the BIM mods and have read on the site that they keep ips for 24 hours, hence my urgency and actions.

The police knoked on my door the other day asking about a stabbing round here, was that hassling me ? Should I have slammed the door? I also assume your Dad wasnt a train driver, my uncle was, maybe that was one of the things that affected how I felt ?

I am suprised you read all this other mad stuff into this.

BTW there were others who did the same, and I dont think i was the first. The police appeared to already know of the rocks being dropped when i spoke to them.

edit

You say i am authouritarian for thinking i know better than BIM what to do, umm isnt that a bit odd. Are you saying I should defer to thier authourity ? And by ignoring thier 'moral supremacy' I am wrong....? That doesnt really work for me....?

 

[gurrier]

Glad you have calmed down a bit.

It's a judgement call for sure, I dont think the 'proper' course of action is a clear one. You may disagree as your decision is bound to be informed by your own particular set of values and ideals.

I took the view that after reading the reprt of the crime that I had become privvy to evidence of a seroius and pointless crime (by my own moral standards , sure). I was also told by the BIM mods and have read on the site that they keep ips for 24 hours, hence my urgency and actions.

The police knoked on my door the other day asking about a stabbing round here, was that hassling me ? Should I have slammed the door? I also assume your Dad wasnt a train driver, my uncle was, maybe that was one of the things that affected how I felt ?

I am suprised you read all this other mad stuff into this.

BTW there were others who did the same, and I dont think i was the first. The police appeared to already know of the rocks being dropped when i spoke to them.

edit

You say i am authouritarian for thinking i know better than BIM what to do, umm isnt that a bit odd. Are you saying I should defer to thier authourity ? And by ignoring thier 'moral supremacy' I am wrong....? That doesnt really work for me....?

First of all, dropping rocks on trains is against every sane person's moral standards. That is not contraversial.

Second of all, the authoritarianism is down to the fact that you decided on behalf of the IMC that they should be involved in the police investigation. It is not that they have moral supremacy, just that you took a decision whose serious consequences had to be dealt with by other people - which they obviously could not do as you knew well. The proper course of action would have been to discuss it with the IMC and come up with a course of action that was agreed by the people involved. You instead decided - on their behalf - to involve them in the investigation whether they wanted to or not - that is authoritarian in my book (it's also called touting around this way).

If the incident did indeed happen, of course the cops knew about it. Don't you think that train drivers report incidents of rocks being dropped on trains? As I said above, your actions did nothing to protect the public, they merely caused a heap of shit for the imc volunteers.

Once again, I ask you how exactly did your actions do anything other than cause a lot of trouble for the IMC?

 

[Zaskar]

First of all, dropping rocks on trains is against every sane person's moral standards. That is not contraversial.

Second of all, the authoritarianism is down to the fact that you decided on behalf of the IMC that they should be involved in the police investigation. It is not that they have moral supremacy, just that you took a decision whose serious consequences had to be dealt with by other people - which they obviously could not do as you knew well. The proper course of action would have been to discuss it with the IMC and come up with a course of action that was agreed by the people involved. You instead decided - on their behalf - to involve them in the investigation whether they wanted to or not - that is authoritarian in my book (it's also called touting around this way).

If the incident did indeed happen, of course the cops knew about it. Don't you think that train drivers report incidents of rocks being dropped on trains? As I said above, your actions did nothing to protect the public, they merely caused a heap of shit for the imc volunteers.

Once again, I ask you how exactly did your actions do anything other than cause a lot of trouble for the IMC?

I think I ansered your last in my earlier post. You appear to have judged me. A trifle authouritarian of you perhaps.

I am not sure how helping the police in any way they can is a lot of shit. Also please note others did the same. Also I would argue that BIM acted rashley in allowing the original post to stay up for soooo long. It was clearly in breech of IM guidlines, and also discredits 'activism', but that is probalby authoritain of me too....

 

[gurrier]

I think I ansered your last in my earlier post. You appear to have judged me. A trifle authouritarian of you perhaps.

You did not answer me. Your allusion to me being authoritarian for 'judging' you is simply a stupid little squirm. My opinion did not, for example, cause you to be involved in a police investigation against your will.

I am not sure how helping the police in any way they can is a lot of shit. Also please note others did the same. Also I would argue that BIM acted rashley in allowing the original post to stay up for soooo long. It was clearly in breech of IM guidlines, and also discredits 'activism', but that is probalby authoritain of me too....

Having the state attempting to force you to give them information against your will is a lot of shit in anybody's book and you still haven't indicated how your actions did _anything else at all_

There are well known ways for dealing with breaches of IM guidelines. Going to the police immediately is not one of them. It is touting. It amounts to an attempt to destroy the IMC. In most IMC's in the world, your actions would be taken a hell of a lot more seriously than they are here.

 

[Zaskar]

You did not answer me. Your allusion to me being authoritarian for 'judging' you is simply a stupid little squirm. My opinion did not, for example, cause you to be involved in a police investigation against your will.


Having the state attempting to force you to give them information against your will is a lot of shit in anybody's book and you still haven't indicated how your actions did _anything else at all_

There are well known ways for dealing with breaches of IM guidelines. Going to the police immediately is not one of them. It is touting. It amounts to an attempt to destroy the IMC. In most IMC's in the world, your actions would be taken a hell of a lot more seriously than they are here.

I am sorry I disagree with you. Let me state finally that my actions were those of a concerned citizen, not some crazy anti imc loon, something you appear anxoius to paint me as.

My final word is, as this is going round in circles what with your rudeness and dogma, is that I alerted the police promptly, as did others, becuse I wanted these dangerous people caught. I was arare from postings on the site that bim have ips for 24 hours so I tht it wise to act promptly (or in an authouritarian manner if you wish).

I think no further progress is likely, we appear to have widely differing views on how we interprea\t hte old commen law thing of watching out for eachother. I was more concerned that possible seroius injury be avoided and placed this above minor inconvenience to the BIM lot, who lets not forget left this heinous and guidline trampling post on hte site.

Please try not to call me any more silly names, there really is no need and it discredits you, you cunt

 

[gurrier]

I am sorry I disagree with you. Let me state finally that my actions were those of a concerned citizen, not some crazy anti imc loon, something you appear anxoius to paint me as.

My final word is, as this is going round in circles what with your rudeness and dogma, is that I alerted the police promptly, as did others, becuse I wanted these dangerous people caught. I was arare from postings on the site that bim have ips for 24 hours so I tht it wise to act promptly (or in an authouritarian manner if you wish).

I think no further progress is likely, we appear to have widely differing views on how we interprea\t hte old commen law thing of watching out for eachother. I was more concerned that possible seroius injury be avoided and placed this above minor inconvenience to the BIM lot, who lets not forget left this heinous and guidline trampling post on hte site.

Please try not to call me any more silly names, there really is no need and it discredits you, you cunt

To try to get it into your thick, infantile, self-obsessed, tout's head what you have done, consider the following analogy.

A crime occurs on my estate. I believe that my neighbour has information that could help the police in their investigations. I further know that the police have it in for this neighbour on account of the fact that he has done a lot to expose their misdeeds and stand up for the community. I also know that the police are very likely to use any excuse to harrass this individual and shut him up. I could leave him with the decision as to what to do, whether to help the investigation or not, or I could go to the police and tell them that my neighbour has information that might be of interest to them. Where I'm from, somebody who decides to do the latter is considered a tout, an informer, the lowest of the low, scum. At the very least they would be boycotted and vilified by their neighbours, although they'd be lucky getting away with that.

That's what you've done mate, except you have done it to a movement rather than an individual and stitched up a whole load of folk in doing so. I'm not surprised that you would like the conversation to end, but people don't forget touting just like that - nor should they. In fact people tend to have long and bitter memories when it comes to this shit and quite rightly too. Everybody hates an informer and everybody knows that you can never trust them.

 

[Zaskar]

Hmm, your analogy is faulty and based on faulty suppositions, sorry, it provokes little thought. As I said earlier BIM have to my knowledge never been hassled by the police, I mean ffs it's not like they are going to storm the winter palace or anything, do you read the site ?

Your threats appear to indicate that your on the back foot here.

"Everybody hates an informer", what a fucknig load of wank.... you idiot.

The reason I dont wish to continue this diatribe is that you have different values and morals to me yet you are intent on harassing and insulting me for not agreeing iwth oyu, and you call me authoritarian, you utter knob.

Lay off the threats too, it's not nice and really rather chidish, but all this is par for the course on this bit of u75 innit......

Thats all from me unless someone else (or yourself) can talk about this issue sensibly and with civillity. Oh and soory for being a crap speelr.

BTW I am glad I dont live where you live, you would probably have beat me up by now....

 

[gurrier]

Hmm, your analogy is faulty and based on faulty suppositions, sorry, it provokes little thought. As I said earlier BIM have to my knowledge never been hassled by the police, I mean ffs it's not like they are going to storm the winter palace or anything, do you read the site ?

Your threats appear to indicate that your on the back foot here.

"Everybody hates an informer", what a fucknig load of wank.... you idiot.

The reason I dont wish to continue this diatribe is that you have different values and morals to me yet you are intent on harassing and insulting me for not agreeing iwth oyu, and you call me authoritarian, you utter knob.

Lay off the threats too, it's not nice and really rather chidish, but all this is par for the course on this bit of u75 innit......

Thats all from me unless someone else (or yourself) can talk about this issue sensibly and with civillity. Oh and soory for being a crap speelr.

How dare you accuse me of threatening you - you lying touting bastard. I don't take that kindly, especially from somebody who appears proud of his history of informing. Gonna run off to the OB now to try to get U75 shut down now, are you?

Asserting that my analogy is based on faulty suppositions is worthless and I very much doubt if you are capable of the kind of self-reflection that could cause anything to 'provoke' thought in your precious little self-obsessed head anyway.

Also, stating that BIM has not been hassled by the cops in the past is willfully stupid. You probably know well that state powers in general hates indymedia and they have a very clear record all over the world of harrassment. You seem to think this is all some sort of big game - I don't.

 

[Zaskar]

Oh god, more abuse.

I suspect your slightly ott view of the police v indymedia is a very understnadable seige mentality given that you are involved with running IM in northern island. I assure you the police are not always hassling the BIM lot, hardly anything happens there really.

Sorry to hear you get grief and perhaps now I understnd your attitude.

Please can you stop all this abuse now. I am sorry for dishing it out, I was just upset by your tirade.

 

[gurrier]

Oh god, more abuse.

I suspect your slightly ott view of the police v indymedia is a very understnadable seige mentality given that you are involved with running IM in northern island. I assure you the police are not always hassling the BIM lot, hardly anything happens there really.

Sorry to hear you get grief and perhaps now I understnd your attitude.

Please can you stop all this abuse now.

Please do not post information about me on the internet that I have not chosen to share with the public, whether it is accurate or not (as in this case). I also think that you would be much better off asking yourself a few hard questions rather than attempting to incorrectly psychoanalyse my problem. You write that you are 'sorry to hear' that I get grief. You heard no such thing - you just made it up to project the problem on to me. No go mate.

 

[Zaskar]

Please do not post information about me on the internet that I have not chosen to share with the public, whether it is accurate or not (as in this case). I also think that you would be much better off asking yourself a few hard questions rather than attempting to incorrectly psychoanalyse my problem. You write that you are 'sorry to hear' that I get grief. You heard no such thing - you just made it up to project the problem on to me. No go mate.

Oh ffs, I got all that off this site.... you may forget what you have said previously but your words and everything you do n hte net is in the public domain. Simple. It is you who chose to share all that info previously.

Thanks for the disussion, most of it, and I really dont understnd your thnig about 'hard questions'. This is the language of authoritarianism for sure.

Beacuse I dont agree with you I must be wrong ? Really, stop messing about.

People often disagree, it happens you know. Shall we leave it there ? (MATE)

 

[IPRN]

Zaskar, you really are the scum of the earth.

 

[Zaskar]

Sorry you feel that way, have a nice day.

 

[Sorry.]

Sorry you feel that way, have a nice day.

He's right though isn't he.

You appear to be living in some kind of dreamworld where the police don't harrass activists.

 

[Zaskar]

He's right though isn't he.

You appear to be living in some kind of dreamworld where the police don't harrass activists.

Well, I live in my own world as we all do and my opinions are a reflection of my expiriences, does it make me scum because they are different to yours?

It is a fact that bim is not hassled by the police, that is what I have stated earlier.

Of course activists are hassled by hte police, I never said they werent, so why are you?

I have been hassled by the police on many occassions, usually for having the gall to insist of filming what is going on and perhaps documenting stuff they only want the fit team to film.

Some of you lot aint really very nice are you ?

EDIT.

PLease remember why i told the police of the evidence of seroius crime posted on bim. People were dropping rocks onto a moving train. To me this is the over powering fact here. They were also encouraging others to do the same. Why ? Because they dont like cars.

Sorry but I felt this was just wrong and I am willing to accept others may think it was a reasnoble act of protest, I dont.

Others amy also feel BIM should be a safe repository for such information and where it can not come to the notice of others and the police, I dont. Dropping rocks on trains, endangering life, is morally corrupt to my way of thinking and is also against the sites very sensible guidelines.

 

[Sorry.]

Well, I live in my own world as we all do and my opinions are a reflection of my expiriences, does it make me scum because they are different to yours?

It is a fact that bim is not hassled by the police, that is what I have stated earlier.

Of course activists are hassled by hte police, I never said they werent, so why are you?

I have been hassled by the police on many occassions, usually for having the gall to insist of filming what is going on and perhaps documenting stuff they only want the fit team to film.

Some of you lot aint really very nice are you ?

EDIT.

PLease remember why i told the police of the evidence of seroius crime posted on bim. People were dropping rocks onto a moving train. To me this is the over powering fact here. They were also encouraging others to do the same. Why ? Because they dont like cars.

Sorry but I felt this was just wrong and I am willing to accept others may think it was a reasnoble act of protest, I dont.

Others amy also feel BIM should be a safe repository for such information and where it can not come to the notice of others and the police, I dont. Dropping rocks on trains, endangering life, is morally corrupt to my way of thinking and is also against the sites very sensible guidelines.

Who's suggesting otherwise?

The issue people have here is that in your little intervention all you've done is make trouble for entirely innocent BIM volunteers. Quite what you thought you were trying to achieve is beyond me.

 

[Zaskar]

Who's suggesting otherwise?

The issue people have here is that in your little intervention all you've done is make trouble for entirely innocent BIM volunteers. Quite what you thought you were trying to achieve is beyond me.

Oh blimey, look fyi some noe else had beat me to it anyway and another on the site sdmitted to doing the same. I asked several people what they thought I should do and they all said tell the police befor these 'activists' kill someone.

I resent the typecasting.

Perhpas it is salient to point out that the rock droppers may have casued rather more than 'inconvenience' and it is also perhaps they who should be lambasted for discrediting the site bt posting of thier actions and encouraging others to do the same......

edit

If the inconenience I have caused has done harm to anyone I am sorry, but i am not sorry for hopefully stopping this action reoccuring. If that is authouritarian and 'wrong' then I am gulity as charged.

 

[Sorry.]

Oh blimey, look fyi some noe else had beat me to it anyway and another on the site sdmitted to doing the same. I asked several people what they thought I should do and they all said tell the police befor these 'activists' kill someone.

I resent the typecasting.

Perhpas it is salient to point out that the rock droppers may have casued rather more than 'inconvenience' and it is also perhaps they who should be lambasted for discrediting the site bt posting of thier actions and encouraging others to do the same......

edit

If the inconenience I have caused has done harm to anyone I am sorry, but i am not sorry for hopefully stopping this action reoccuring. If that is authouritarian and 'wrong' then I am gulity as charged.

The point is that if you'd given it a moment's thought then you would have realised that your calling the police won't stop this action re-occurring. But you were too busy diving for the telephone to think...

 

[Zaskar]

The point is that if you'd given it a moment's thought then you would have realised that your calling the police won't stop this action re-occurring. But you were too busy diving for the telephone to think...

No, dont be silly, as I said I asked many people and perhaps you should also note that many other posters to the site condemned this action.

Obviously alerting the police cant garuntee these people will be caught, they may yet seroiusly injure someone, but if bim are willing or indeed able to give the police an IP or the start of the trail to the IP it may prevent a reoccurence and a possible tradgedy.

As I have said befor (groan) bim have publicly stated they keep ips for 24 hours.....

 

[Sorry.]

No, dont be silly, as I said I asked many people and perhaps you should also note that many other posters to the site condemned this action.

Obviously alerting the police cant garuntee these people will be caught, they may yet seroiusly injure someone, but if bim are willing or indeed able to give the police an IP or the start of the trail to the IP it may prevent a reoccurence and a possible tradgedy.

But of course, rather than discussing that with them, you called the police.

(incidentally, did this [the rock throwing] actually happen? It's not reported anywhere...)

 

[Zaskar]

But of course, rather than discussing that with them, you called the police.

(incidentally, did this [the rock throwing] actually happen? It's not reported anywhere...)

Discuss it with them ? How exactly ? Thier list is closed and I had no idea how long befor a mail may have been read. Wot then, if they had said 'yeah we already reported it to the police' no inonvenience would be caused, and if they had said (bizarrely) no we dont think the police should be told we might be able to help find out who these people are', well I still would have reported it for all the reasons stated earler.

Others beat me to it remember too, and the original posters of the item are surely the people who should be lambasted for htier actions and for causing inconvenience to bimmers.

I sorry to say i remain confused by the pasting I am getting over this....

 

[Sorry.]

Discuss it with them ? How exactly ? Thier list is closed and I had no idea how long befor a mail may have been read. Wot then, if they had said 'yeah we already reported it to the police' no inonvenience would be caused, and if they had said (bizarrely) no we dont think the police should be told we might be able to help find out who these people are', well I still would have reported it for all the reasons stated earler.

E-mail? Telephone? (did you even try?)
You stated earlier that you knew for a fact that BIM never get any hassle from the police, that would imply a fairly intimate knowledge of those involved.

What about the other question; did the rock-throwing actually happen? If it did, why has no-one reported it?

 

[Herbert Read]

Zaskar watch your back!

Speaking to the police is always wrong, what happened to self managemnet and resloving differences internally.

It sounds like you have a history of running to the cops!

People who do thid should be kicked out off any social movement!

 

[Zaskar]

Oh my lord. I have a long history of reporting violent and danerous crime that serves no purpose and can only hurt people to the police. I am proud of that.

This has included getting beaten up a few times for taking on the likes of crack dealers and muggers in the street and trying to defend others in some very scary situations. i am also proud of that.

This is the very first time that anything I have seen anywhere on the net has proviked me to such action and I am glad I did it, I am just rahter upset by all this and expcially that last post.

Rest assured if i knew the people who had droppped the rocks I would have spoken to them but it would not have been pretty.....

BTW i am not in any social movents I dont think, except trade unions, cnd, and the local bridge club.

If I was I would happily be judged for what I felt I had to do and accept any sanction. I didnt do it 'secretly'. I still fail to understnd all the fuss you are all maknig about this....

 

[solstice]

That sounds completely crazy.. hope somebody will intervene soon with different point of view.
I can't believe that all of us are more concern about indymedia than possible people hurt or worse killed.. people got killed in the past for that, at least in my country happened, once to a young woman in her car hit by a stone.
You must have no consciousness at all!
I have lots of respect for Indymedia but they should have been the first at calling the police, if they did not.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Regardless of the situation, "watch your back" is not an appropriate thing to say to somebody on this forum.