Welsh Family Values

[Athos]

Ahem.

My emphasis.

'Most people' was little more than shorthand for social norms (value based, I accept). I wouldn't walk into a women's changing room, and hope that other blokes wouldn't. I'm not excluding a section of society (or whatever shrill hyperbole was used about my position on kids screaming in pubs), just acknowledging the feelings of others.

 

[Athos]

Unlucky. How often has an evening out been ruined by adults?

Too often.

 

[Athos]

if the sound of crying *ruins* your evening out (assuming not trying to watch a film or a play)... i can only conclude you don't have much fun going on anyway. surely you're too wrapped up in chat and banter and laughing to focus on extraneous noise.

If I've got an opportunity for a night out with the mrs and we want to talk to each other in a relaxing environment, the mood is ruined somewhat by a kid screaming a few feet away.

But worse than that is older kids running around bumping into your chair and perpetually on the verge of knocking the drinks over. Whilst their parents are too busy getting pissed to care about the irritation their kids are causing to others.

 

[Athos]

it was a community/family event and the kiddies enhanced that and gave me some hope to be fair

The context is crucial.

 

[cesare]

'Most people' was little more than shorthand for social norms (value based, I accept). I wouldn't walk into a women's changing room, and hope that other blokes wouldn't. I'm not excluding a section of society (or whatever shrill hyperbole was used about my position on kids screaming in pubs), just acknowledging the feelings of others.

You cannot draw a comparison between gender segregated changing rooms and pubs without deploying another fallacy.

No shrill hyperbole either - there's another one.

 

[butchersapron]

The context is crucial.

Indeed, so why insist that all contexts are "adult one." -i.e adult alone.

 

[butchersapron]

It looks like it comes down to one set of values against another, then. My values mean that I wouldn't let my kids spoil somebody's trip to the pub. Other people may feel it's OK to do.

It might rest on that - but i was saying that your arguments are not real arguments. They are circular assertions. They don't even support your values.

 

[Athos]

It might rest on that - but i was saying that your arguments are not real arguments. They are circular assertions. They don't even support your values.

They are value based assertions. As are the counter-arguments.

 

[butchersapron]

They are value based assertions. As are the counter-arguments.

They are arguments based on the use of social space and how that works for parents. Yours are based on the fact they are a) and you want a) so anything that is not a) is bad. Child like arguments. Being value based is neither here nor there if your arguments are circular and assumption based.

 

[Athos]

Indeed, so why insist that all contexts are "adult one." -i.e adult alone.

Again, it's a value judgement. In my opinion, absent an event of some kind, pubs are environments in which adults can reasonably expect behaviour of a certain maturity (it's about the impact of the behaviour on others, not the age of those present). You may disagree.

If you had young kids, would you let them run around a pub creating havoc and spoiling it for others?

 

[butchersapron]

Again, it's a value judgement. In my opinion, absent an event of some kind, pubs are environments in which adults can reasonably expect behaviour of a certain maturity (it's about the impact of the behaviour on others, not the age of those present). You may disagree.

If you had young kids, would you let them run around a pub creating havoc and spoiling it for others?

Another circular 'argument'. Value judgments are not circular arguments. You can argue in support of them non-circularly. Well, other people can...

 

[Athos]

They are arguments based on the use of social space and how that works for parents. Yours are based on the fact they are a) and you want a) so anything that is not a) is bad. Child like arguments. Being value based is neither here nor there if your arguments are circular and assumption based.

The counte-arguments are based on value judgements about how social space should be used.

 

[Athos]

Another circular 'argument'. Value judgments are not circular arguments. You can argue in support of them non-circularly. Well, other people can...

What about the question I asked?

 

[butchersapron]

The counte-arguments are based on value judgements about how social space should be used.

Yes they are. But not circular ones. The value judgment thing has blinded you to the key part of my point - the circular nature of your argument. Essentially, i like pubs, pubs are this thing, therefore do this thing.

 

[zog]

and this was in Wales!

Not in Swansea though

 

[butchersapron]

What about the question I asked?

If you had young kids, would you let them run around a pub creating havoc and spoiling it for others?

Grow up.

 

[Athos]

Yes they are. But not circular ones. The value judgment thing has blinded you to the key part of my point - the circular nature of your argument. Essentially, i like pubs, pubs are this thing, therefore do this thing.

No. My position is based on a value judgement about the extent to which it is OK for my conduct to impact negatively on others.

 

[butchersapron]

No. My position is based on a value judgement about the extent to which it is OK for my conduct to impact negatively on others.

This:

It's about the imposition caused by the inappropriateness of children's behaviour in an environment which most people would reasonably expect to be an adult one

which my original post refers to did a far lot more than that. It assumed a range of things that need to exist for that to be true - didn't it?

 

[Athos]

Grow up.

Come on, it's a fair question. Because, ultimately, that's what my position boils down to. (I haven't said kids should be excluded from pubs or anything extreme.) I'm interested to see how your position differs from mine.

 

[butchersapron]

Come on, it's a fair question. Because, ultimately, that's what my position boils down to. (I haven't said kids should be excluded from pubs or anything extreme.) I'm interested to see how your position differs from mine.

Asking someone if they would do evil or good (defined as your postion) is not a fair question

 

[Athos]

This:

which my original post refers to did a far lot more than that. It assumed a range of things that need to exist for that to be true - didn't it?

I can see how you could interpret it that way if it is considered in isolation. But, in the context of this thread, that's a bit disingenuous. My position isn't based on any assumption; it's based upon my experience that noisy kids in pubs impact negatively on others' enjoyment. And a value judgment about the reasonableness of me conducting myself in a way that causes that negative impact.

 

[William of Walworth]

Oh what a surprise...WoW being a twat.

Agenda, much?

(his previous post a few pages back was even more full of shit -- with an entirely false accusation against me to boot)

 

[Athos]

Asking someone if they would do evil or good (defined as your postion) is not a fair question

I'm asking you what you would do as a matter of fact. And suspect that the reason you won't answer is that your position would be the same as mine.

 

[butchersapron]

You're asking me a would you let your son assault someone again? question.

 

[William of Walworth]

It's not confined to Wales. On these estates people live on the same street as their mums, sisters, dads etc.
Now I come to think about it most of my in laws family live within the same square mile elsewhere in Yorkshire.
London is the unusual case.

I've worked on estates in London which are full of family and extended family all living close by.

Do see your points, I've acknowldged several times in earlier pots that the close family network thing isn't just a Welsh phenomenon. But it IS pretty strong here, and it's where I live.

More tomorrow. Off to pub once again

 

[Athos]

You're asking me a would you let your son assault someone again? question.

No I'm not. Why won't you answer? Would it help if I refined it a bit?:

If you knew that allowing your kids to be noisy in a pub would spoil other people's night out, would you allow it to happen?

 

[butchersapron]

No I'm not. Why won't you answer? Would it help if I refined it a bit?:

If you knew that allowing your kids to be noisy in a pub would spoil other people's night out, would you allow it to happen?

If you had young kids, would you let them run around a pub creating havoc and spoiling it for others?

Would you do evil?

 

[Athos]

Would you do evil?

I might do it as you define it.

I've answered your question. Will you answer mine?

 

[butchersapron]

I didn't ask a question - i characterised yours. And no, of course i won't answer such a refined assumption based question.

 

[Athos]

I didn't ask a question - i characterised yours. And no, of course i won't answer such a refined assumption based question.

What is the assumption in the reworded question?