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Welsh Family Values

I agree, being in a pub with a whingey toddler is annoying. However, Wetherspoons is not somewhere I would go for a quiet, adult only drink on a weekend daytime - at least my local isn't, it's always packed with families at the weekend.
 
Thora said:
I agree, being in a pub with a whingey toddler is annoying. However, Wetherspoons is not somewhere I would go for a quiet, adult only drink on a weekend daytime - at least my local isn't, it's always packed with families at the weekend.
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Fair point. I guess it's horses for courses.
 
Athos said:
There's loads of places parents with young kids can go to socialise without imposing screaming kids on people who want a quiet drink. To sit in a pub and do nothing whilst your baby cries is selfish. Both towards the kid and the other patrons of the pub. If my kids cry in a pub I try to settle them; if I can't, I take them outside for a walk; if that doesn't work, I take them home.
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Yeah this is why I didn't go anywhere at all with my middle child and I only 'inflict' youngest on pubs in daytime for short periods. We're very child unfriendly in general in England, from what I remember, Scotland are even worse (for not wanting young kids on the premises). I can't speak for Wales.
I didn't even go to places that are supposed to be for babies because he cried, but it is isolating and everyone seems to be judging you no matter what you do. Old women are the worse but the amount of sneering you get for even getting on a train/ bus with a kid that's crying.
 
_angel_ said:
Yeah this is why I didn't go anywhere at all with my middle child and I only 'inflict' youngest on pubs in daytime for short periods. We're very child unfriendly in general in England, from what I remember, Scotland are even worse (for not wanting young kids on the premises). I can't speak for Wales.
I didn't even go to places that are supposed to be for babies because he cried, but it is isolating and everyone seems to be judging you no matter what you do. Old women are the worse but the amount of sneering you get for even getting on a train/ bus with a kid that's crying.
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I don't see how anyone could object to anyone taking kids to a kid's venue, or even on a bus or train. But I can't help but think that a pub isn't a good place for bawling infants. To my mind, that's not being unfriendly to kids; rather it's being fair to other people. And I love kids and am the main carer for mine. I don't want to see anyone isolated, but I do find the some people's sense of entitlement a bit frustrating. The truth is that people can't have it all. The way I see it, unless you're willing to impose your choices on others, then, if you choose kids, that's going to preclude some adult activities.
 
nice.

alternatively, why restrict a section of our society (children) from any environment unless it is, by nature dangerous or sexualised/violent? It's almost a cliche to point to southern europe, but in absence of a pub culture they have family friendly venues for drinking and socialising late into the night, children included.
 
Athos said:
I don't see how anyone could object to anyone taking kids to a kid's venue, or even on a bus or train. But I can't help but think that a pub isn't a good place for bawling infants. To my mind, that's not being unfriendly to kids; rather it's being fair to other people. And I love kids and am the main carer for mine. I don't want to see anyone isolated, but I do find the some people's sense of entitlement a bit frustrating. The truth is that people can't have it all. The way I see it, unless you're willing to impose your choices on others, then, if you choose kids, that's going to preclude some adult activities.
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There are loads of child free places though! If I go pretty much anywhere after 8pm I can 99% guarantee I won't see anyone younger than 12. I take my kid to places lateish (up to about 9pm) and he is normally the only child there.
 
spanglechick said:
nice.

alternatively, why restrict a section of our society (children) from any environment unless it is, by nature dangerous or sexualised/violent? It's almost a cliche to point to southern europe, but in absence of a pub culture they have family friendly venues for drinking and socialising late into the night, children included.
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I'm not sure children being in late night drinking venues is something to aspire to.

But even then, my point wasn't that kids shouldn't be in pubs (I've spent the afternoon there with my two), but rather that parents should show some consideration for others: if they cannot behave in a way that doesn't spoil others' enjoyment, don't take them. It's the sense of entitlement that irritates me; the idea that parents who have chosen to have children are entitled to impose their noise on others.
 
spanglechick said:
nice.

alternatively, why restrict a section of our society (children) from any environment unless it is, by nature dangerous or sexualised/violent? It's almost a cliche to point to southern europe, but in absence of a pub culture they have family friendly venues for drinking and socialising late into the night, children included.
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Most of Asia, too, or the bits I've seen anyhow. People have no problem with restaurants etc being used as kids playrooms. Often the owners will take it on themselves to help keep the kids amused, too. The waiter will be getting them some sweets etc. We're really shit in comparison.

Apologies if this point's already been made. I've not read the thread- William's views on kids don't make easy reading for me so I tend to avoid them.
 
Athos said:
I'm not sure children being in late night drinking venues is something to aspire to.

But even then, my point wasn't that kids shouldn't be in pubs (I've spent the afternoon there with my two), but rather that parents should show some consideration for others: if they cannot behave in a way that doesn't spoil others' enjoyment, don't take them. It's the sense of entitlement that irritates me; the idea that parents who have chosen to have children are entitled to impose their noise on others.
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but you're behaving as if children are annoying ringtones. children are an unavoidable stage of being a person. like we all are. we were all babies once, and we cried. what gives us the position of judgement to disapprove when another person is going through that unavoidable stage?

and why isn't it something to aspire to? having kids in licensed cafes etc in the evenings? perhaps if you grow up around people making alcohol and socialising a normal part of family life, they're less likely to see boozing as big and clever, adult stuff and go fucking mental on it in their teens.
 
Thora said:
There are loads of child free places though! If I go pretty much anywhere after 8pm I can 99% guarantee I won't see anyone younger than 12. I take my kid to places lateish (up to about 9pm) and he is normally the only child there.
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Which, in and of itself, isn't something I'd object to. But it would be different if he was running around screeching, spoiling everyone else's evening. Simple really. Not anti-kids, not even anti-kids-in-pubs; just courtesy.
 
Thora said:
As far as I am aware, children are human beings as well so no reason why they shouldn't be "imposed" on the rest of society :confused:
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It's about the imposition caused by the inappropriateness of children's behaviour in an environment which most people would reasonably expect to be an adult one.
 
spanglechick said:
but you're behaving as if children are annoying ringtones. children are an unavoidable stage of being a person. like we all are. we were all babies once, and we cried. what gives us the position of judgement to disapprove when another person is going through that unavoidable stage?

and why isn't it something to aspire to? having kids in licensed cafes etc in the evenings? perhaps if you grow up around people making alcohol and socialising a normal part of family life, they're less likely to see boozing as big and clever, adult stuff and go fucking mental on it in their teens.
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I don't disapprove of a state of human development. It's just that I consider it selfish to impose the noise that can go with it on others.
 
Athos said:
Yes. But so is the contrary position.
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The contrary position isn't about excluding a section of society on the basis of a "most people" argument that you only seem to share with William.

Edit: which if you're doing fallacies, is appeal to popularity.
 
cesare said:
The contrary position isn't about excluding a section of society on the basis of a "most people" argument that you only seem to share with William.
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It's not on the basis of 'most people.' It's in the basis of imposing on others. And I haven't called for the exclusion of all kids, or even of noisy kids. All I've suggested is that parents ought to be a little more considerate, and not allow their kids to ruin other people's evenings.
 
butchersapron said:
They might be value judgements, but i can't see how they're based on circular argument or assumption.
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It looks like it comes down to one set of values against another, then. My values mean that I wouldn't let my kids spoil somebody's trip to the pub. Other people may feel it's OK to do.
 
Athos said:
It's not on the basis of 'most people.' It's in the basis of imposing on others. And I haven't called for the exclusion of all kids, or even of noisy kids. All I've suggested is that parents ought to be a little more considerate, and not allow their kids to ruin other people's evenings.
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This wasn't the evening though, it was during the day.

I honestly cannot think of a single occasion where an evening out has been ruined by children.
 
Thora said:
This wasn't the evening though, it was during the day.

I honestly cannot think of a single occasion where an evening out has been ruined by children.
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I can.
 
if the sound of crying *ruins* your evening out (assuming not trying to watch a film or a play)... i can only conclude you don't have much fun going on anyway. surely you're too wrapped up in chat and banter and laughing to focus on extraneous noise.
 
went to a venue last night for a benefit for a deported family and there were lots of kids there
they were cool, running around and livening the place up
at one point a woman who was on the stage asked where her child was and it was being looked after by someone else in the next room, on with the show.

tbh i was more concerned about not clocking one of them with my drink or knocking in to them through my action not theirs.
it was a community/family event and the kiddies enhanced that and gave me some hope to be fair :)
 
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