Proper Tidy
Arsed
It's a good piece, not sure about the way he lumps one strand of thinking in as the collective view of the 'radical left' but probably a minor quibble. Didn't know cruddas had it in him
Watson demands...
- Thread starter TopCat
- Start date
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
That's a fair criticism to be honest. I also think he's not quite right in lumping Mason in with right wing remainers in the Party. Even though they have the same ends they want to get there for different reasons.
But his core points are spot on:
1. That the loss of leave voters voting Labour towers over the loss of remain votes if measured since, say. Blair.
2. That, as France proves, trying to build socialism without the working class, and the writing off of the bulk of a working class pushed out to the peripheral zones, dying towns and bleak coastal area) fails in the short term as it involves chasing votes which are volatile, unreliable and competed and kills the left in the long term.
3. Regardless of 1 & 2 Labour should have a political analysis that trumps short terms electoral considerations (after all, isn't that what Corbynism was supposed to be about) and situates Brexit within that broader analysis
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
I see Watson has provided a list of fellow traitors.
Scores of Labour MPs ask Corbyn to withdraw whip from Chris Williamson
Scores of Labour MPs ask Corbyn to withdraw whip from Chris Williamson
Proper Tidy
Arsed
While that is a list of complete cunts, Williamson is at best blind to antisemitism and at worst an antisemite. And also obviously a cunt.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
This is the situation we still seem to be in. A tiny number of people actually give a shit about antisemitism yet plenty of cunts are very happy to pretend they do. Corbyn is not an antisemite but frankly a lot of his supporters still seem quite happy to ignore or dismiss it as purely politically motivated smears. It can be both a problem and something that is exploited by cunts. Drives me up the wall.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
Is Corbyn’s leadership good enough on this? Haters gonna hate for sure, but I’d like to see some passion from him on it. That may be expressed in solid work to inform and educate within the Party, but his role is also to project the values of the Party further afield.
Keeping quiet and hoping it will subside isn’t going to work. Real damage is being done. Maybe he needs to seize the agenda, lose a bit of calm, show he really detests anti-Semitism. I don’t believe he is an anti-Semite, but anyone can call him that these days and expect little come back. He should be fucking livid about that and show it.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
He might be able to do more and central Labour leadership I think could definitely do more, but it doesn't come from some sort of central example as the attackers have been saying - it's part of a general antisemitism that goes unchallenged at grass roots and a broader mindset where racist conspiracy theories are acceptable, which is encouraged constantly by media and politicians of all sorts.
I absolutely include a lot of senior Corbynites in the "not actually giving a shit about antisemitism" category - while they might technically, immediate political positioning comes first, even if just taking the initiative and doing their best to deal with stuff would be a good idea both strategically and morally. I think Corbyn himself is too caught up in wanting to please all factions to properly deal with this stuff.
bellaozzydog
rolling turds in glitter
Do you really
kenny g
Sheeple Awake!
Yes, I do really. How else would he have repeatedly supported anti-Semitic tropes including that ghastly mural, his forward to a history book full of antisemitic shite etc etc
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
*series of right-wing talking points C&Ped from the internet*
bellaozzydog
rolling turds in glitter
You daft spoon fed quarterwit
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
They might be ‘traitors’ but they are also, on this matter, completely correct. Williamson is a poisonous Anti-Semite.
Corbyn could close down ‘the traitors’ by taking effective action against him and by addressing the bilge emanating from his hinterland support
likesfish
You can't park here sir
Might take the whole anti semitism thing slightly more seriously if.
It hasn't been used to attack corbyn and supporters of his.
By people who support Israel regardless.
I get sick of twats posting Rothchilds shite on Facebook although I always assumed the poster was an idiot rather than antisemitic idiot.
It hasn't been used to attack corbyn and supporters of his.
By people who support Israel regardless.
I get sick of twats posting Rothchilds shite on Facebook although I always assumed the poster was an idiot rather than antisemitic idiot.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Yeah, the whataboutery defence has been used regularly. But the point is this, if you don’t want your enemies to weaponise an issue - deal with it.
In this specific case Williamson has been flagrant and baiting and should have been booted out. More generally, there is an AS periphery around the labour left that needs rooting out.
Can you give an example of said baiting?
sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
I was being sarcastic by mimicking the tone of this thread. Watson and the people on that letter are trying to do the best for Labour, Corbyn and his clique are the problem.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
You are right that there is too much of it broadly in the Party, but (and while it shouldn’t be tolerated) it’s little surprise that a political party attracts many a gullible sad act. A forensic analysis of party members of the Conservative or LibDems or any others for that matter would serve up similar bullshit of maybe different, maybe similar hues by the ton.
The problem of antisemitism in Labour is real then, but the wider perception and damage centres all around Corbyn, his blind spots associations and carelessness. It would not have latched without him. It won’t retreat in the public consciousness (and I’m not saying that’s the only aim) unless he takes it on with passion or moves on because it is such a gift to those who want to defeat him.
I wouldn’t characterise Corbyn’s approach as wanting to please everyone either. I think as a leader he largely is a bystander. Events happen and eventually he reacts when compelled. But this is becoming a dangerous split, with not just Watson’s moderates concerned.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
How about his hitherto unknown love and solidarity for holocaust denier jazz musicians?
Labour MP apologises for backing 'antisemitic' jazz musician
How does Tom Watson get to decide what's best for Labour over the membership?
From the same article:
“I’ve learned that Atzmon, a former Israeli soldier, is not confined to the jazz world. I am told that in various blogs and in speeches he has adopted antisemitic language,” he said.
“I wasn’t aware of this until after I tweeted the petition. As soon as I was informed, I deleted the tweet. I’ve always condemned all forms of racism, including antisemitism, and strongly disassociate myself from Atzmon’s antisemitic views.”
Where was the baiting? Certainly you can argue Chris was ignorant, but I'm not convinced that is antisemitism. I think it's reasonable to ask he do better and he appears, from said quote, to have corrected himself.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
He's ignorant of a lot of this stuff apparently
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
Do you know what the majority membership position is over Williamson?
No, mixed I imagine. Is there a local vonc in his constituency?
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
If we are going to have right wing tropes, copied and pasted from the internet, then, in the interests of balance, I give you:
"Ways Corbyn has Opposed Antisemitism"
(I removed number one because it was about him accompanying his mum at cable street, which is too tenuous even for this list of things)
2. In 23rd April 1977, Corbyn organised a counter-demonstration to protect Wood Green from a neo-nazi march through the district. The area had a significant Jewish population.
3. On 7 November 1990, Corbyn signed a motioncondemning the rise of antisemitism in the UK
4. In 2002 Jeremy Corbyn led a clean-up and vigil at Finsbury Park Synagogue which had been vandalised in an anti-Semitic attack
5. On 30 April 2002, Corbyn tabled a motion in the House of Commons condemning ananti-Semitic attackon a London Synagogue
6. On 26 November 2003, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning terrorist attacks on two synagogues
7. In February 2009, Jeremy Corbyn signed a parliamentary motion condemning a fascist for establishing a website to host antisemitic materials
8. On 24th March 2009, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising British Jews who resisted the Holocaust by risking their lives to save potential victims
9. Nine years ago, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motionpraising “Jewish News”for its pioneering investigation into the spread ofAntisemitism on Facebook
10. On 9 February 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion calling for an investigation into Facebook and its failure to prevent the spread of antisemitic materials on its site.
11. On 27 October 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising the late Israeli Prime Minister for pursuing a two state solution to the Israel/Palestine question.
12. On 13 June 2012, Corbyn sponsored and signed a motion condemning the BBC for cutting a Jewish Community television programme from its schedule.
13. 1 October 2013, Corbyn appeared on the BBC to defend Ralph Miliband against vile antisemitic attacks by the UK press.
14. Five years ago Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motioncondemning antisemitism in sport.
15. On 1 March 2013, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning and expressing concern at growing levels of antisemitism in European football.
16. On 9 January 2014, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising Holocaust education programmes that had taken 20,000 British students to Auschwitz.
17. On 22 June 2015, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion expressing concern at the neo-nazi march being planned for an area of London with a significant Jewish population.
18. On 9 October 2016, Corbyn, close to tears, commemorated the 1936 Battle of Cable Street and recalled the role his mother played in defending London’s Jewish community.
19. On 3 December 2016, Corbyn made a visit to Terezin Concentration Camp when Jewish people were murdered by the Nazis. It was Jeremy’s third visit to such a camp, all of which were largely unreported in the most read UK papers.
20. Last year, a widely-endorsed 2018 academic report found ninety-five serious reporting failures in the reporting of the LabourAntisemitism story with the worst offenders The Sun, the Mail & the BBC.
21. On 28 February 2016, five months after becoming leader, Jeremy Corbyn appointed Baroness Royall to investigate antisemitism at Oxford University Labour Club.
22. On 27 April 2016 Corbyn suspended an MP pending an investigation into antisemitism.
23. A day later, Corbyn suspended the three times Mayor of London after complaints of antisemitic comments. Party.
24. On 29 April 2016, Corbyn launched an inquiry into the prevalence of antisemitism in the Labour Party. In spite of later changes in how the inquiry was reported, it was initially praised by Jewish community organisations.
25. In Corbyn’s first seven months as leader of the Labour Party, just ten complaints were received about antisemitism. 90% of those were suspended from the Labour Party within 24 hours.
26. In September 2017, Corbyn backed a motion at Labour’s annual conference introducing a new set of rules regarding antisemitism.
27. In the six months that followed the introduction of the new code of conduct, to March 2018, 94% of the fifty-four people accused of antisemitism remained suspended or barred from Labour Party membership. Three of the fifty-four were exonerated.
28. When Jennie Formby became general secretary of the party last year, she appointed a highly-qualified in-house Counsel, as recommended in the Chakrabarti Report.
29. In 2018, Labour almost doubled the size of its staff team handling investigations and dispute processes.
30. Last year, to speed up the handling of antisemitism cases, smaller panels of 3-5 NEC members were established to enable cases to be heard more quickly.
31. Since 2018, every complaint made about antisemitism is allocated its own independent specialist barrister to ensure due process is followed.
32. The entire backlog of cases outstanding upon Jennie Formby becoming General Secretary of the Labour Party was cleared within 6 months of Jennie taking up her post.
33. Since September 2018, Labour has doubled the size of its National Constitutional Committee (NCC) – its senior disciplinary panel – from 11 to 25 members to enable it to process cases more quickly.
34. Under Formby and Labour’s left-run NEC, NCC arranged elections at short notice to ensure the NCC reached its new full capacity without delay.
35. Since later 2018, the NCC routinely convenes a greater number of hearing panels to allow cases to be heard and finalised without delay.
36. In 2018, the NEC established a ‘Procedures Working Group’ to lead reforms in the way disciplinary cases are handled.
37. The NEC adopted the IHRA working definition of antisemitism and all eleven examples of antisemitism attached to it.
38. A rule change agreed at Conference in 2018 means that all serious complaints, including antisemitism, are dealt with nationally to ensure consistency.
39. Last year, Jennie Formby wrote to the admins and moderators of Facebook groups about how they can effectively moderate online spaces and requested that any discriminatory content be reported to the Labour Party for investigation.
40. Since last year, no one outside Labour’s Governance and Legal Unit can be involved in decision-making on antisemitism investigations. This independence allowsdecisions free from political influence to be taken.
"Ways Corbyn has Opposed Antisemitism"
(I removed number one because it was about him accompanying his mum at cable street, which is too tenuous even for this list of things)
2. In 23rd April 1977, Corbyn organised a counter-demonstration to protect Wood Green from a neo-nazi march through the district. The area had a significant Jewish population.
3. On 7 November 1990, Corbyn signed a motioncondemning the rise of antisemitism in the UK
4. In 2002 Jeremy Corbyn led a clean-up and vigil at Finsbury Park Synagogue which had been vandalised in an anti-Semitic attack
5. On 30 April 2002, Corbyn tabled a motion in the House of Commons condemning ananti-Semitic attackon a London Synagogue
6. On 26 November 2003, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning terrorist attacks on two synagogues
7. In February 2009, Jeremy Corbyn signed a parliamentary motion condemning a fascist for establishing a website to host antisemitic materials
8. On 24th March 2009, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising British Jews who resisted the Holocaust by risking their lives to save potential victims
9. Nine years ago, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motionpraising “Jewish News”for its pioneering investigation into the spread ofAntisemitism on Facebook
10. On 9 February 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion calling for an investigation into Facebook and its failure to prevent the spread of antisemitic materials on its site.
11. On 27 October 2010, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising the late Israeli Prime Minister for pursuing a two state solution to the Israel/Palestine question.
12. On 13 June 2012, Corbyn sponsored and signed a motion condemning the BBC for cutting a Jewish Community television programme from its schedule.
13. 1 October 2013, Corbyn appeared on the BBC to defend Ralph Miliband against vile antisemitic attacks by the UK press.
14. Five years ago Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motioncondemning antisemitism in sport.
15. On 1 March 2013, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion condemning and expressing concern at growing levels of antisemitism in European football.
16. On 9 January 2014, Jeremy Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion praising Holocaust education programmes that had taken 20,000 British students to Auschwitz.
17. On 22 June 2015, Corbyn signed a Parliamentary motion expressing concern at the neo-nazi march being planned for an area of London with a significant Jewish population.
18. On 9 October 2016, Corbyn, close to tears, commemorated the 1936 Battle of Cable Street and recalled the role his mother played in defending London’s Jewish community.
19. On 3 December 2016, Corbyn made a visit to Terezin Concentration Camp when Jewish people were murdered by the Nazis. It was Jeremy’s third visit to such a camp, all of which were largely unreported in the most read UK papers.
20. Last year, a widely-endorsed 2018 academic report found ninety-five serious reporting failures in the reporting of the LabourAntisemitism story with the worst offenders The Sun, the Mail & the BBC.
21. On 28 February 2016, five months after becoming leader, Jeremy Corbyn appointed Baroness Royall to investigate antisemitism at Oxford University Labour Club.
22. On 27 April 2016 Corbyn suspended an MP pending an investigation into antisemitism.
23. A day later, Corbyn suspended the three times Mayor of London after complaints of antisemitic comments. Party.
24. On 29 April 2016, Corbyn launched an inquiry into the prevalence of antisemitism in the Labour Party. In spite of later changes in how the inquiry was reported, it was initially praised by Jewish community organisations.
25. In Corbyn’s first seven months as leader of the Labour Party, just ten complaints were received about antisemitism. 90% of those were suspended from the Labour Party within 24 hours.
26. In September 2017, Corbyn backed a motion at Labour’s annual conference introducing a new set of rules regarding antisemitism.
27. In the six months that followed the introduction of the new code of conduct, to March 2018, 94% of the fifty-four people accused of antisemitism remained suspended or barred from Labour Party membership. Three of the fifty-four were exonerated.
28. When Jennie Formby became general secretary of the party last year, she appointed a highly-qualified in-house Counsel, as recommended in the Chakrabarti Report.
29. In 2018, Labour almost doubled the size of its staff team handling investigations and dispute processes.
30. Last year, to speed up the handling of antisemitism cases, smaller panels of 3-5 NEC members were established to enable cases to be heard more quickly.
31. Since 2018, every complaint made about antisemitism is allocated its own independent specialist barrister to ensure due process is followed.
32. The entire backlog of cases outstanding upon Jennie Formby becoming General Secretary of the Labour Party was cleared within 6 months of Jennie taking up her post.
33. Since September 2018, Labour has doubled the size of its National Constitutional Committee (NCC) – its senior disciplinary panel – from 11 to 25 members to enable it to process cases more quickly.
34. Under Formby and Labour’s left-run NEC, NCC arranged elections at short notice to ensure the NCC reached its new full capacity without delay.
35. Since later 2018, the NCC routinely convenes a greater number of hearing panels to allow cases to be heard and finalised without delay.
36. In 2018, the NEC established a ‘Procedures Working Group’ to lead reforms in the way disciplinary cases are handled.
37. The NEC adopted the IHRA working definition of antisemitism and all eleven examples of antisemitism attached to it.
38. A rule change agreed at Conference in 2018 means that all serious complaints, including antisemitism, are dealt with nationally to ensure consistency.
39. Last year, Jennie Formby wrote to the admins and moderators of Facebook groups about how they can effectively moderate online spaces and requested that any discriminatory content be reported to the Labour Party for investigation.
40. Since last year, no one outside Labour’s Governance and Legal Unit can be involved in decision-making on antisemitism investigations. This independence allowsdecisions free from political influence to be taken.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Yes, I've read that. But let's look at this in more detail.
1. There is zero evidence (not a tweet or comment@ that indicates 'Chris' is a fan of jazz
2. Before signing any petition I generally establish what the issue is before I sign it. I am not a politician. However Chris apparently signs petitions without bothering to first to establish what the issue is.
3. Had he done so, he would have seen the ban was explicitly as result of holocaust denial.
4. He has castigated the LP for being 'too apologetic to Jews'.
5. He has defended anti semites who have been expelled from the LP claiming their foul politics are in fact merely 'passion'.
Finally, I've made my view crystal clear about Williamson and I have supplied the evidence I rely on. You are itching to go into bat for him, so on you go....
Funky_monks
Neo-Rustic
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Of course he is. Most of us have offered full solidarity to holocaust deniers without realising it.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Just off the top of your head 1-3 are factually correct then?
Just off the top of the head regarding 4 google his comments about Pete Willsman. Don't ask me to do the work for you
Just off the top of your head why don't you make your defence of Williamson. Come on lets be having it....
Just off the top of your head if you want to accuse me of 'lying' then assemble an argument instead of pissy dribble you fucking melt.
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