VAT on Private Schools Kicks In
- Thread starter Mr Retro
- Start date
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
So when you say Labour plans for schools what are you talking about? There plans on private schools?
Mr Retro
Beware hedgehogs
No. State schools, is that not obvious from my comment?
For me private schools is a red herring in the discussion. I don’t particularly care what they do to them.
PTK
Paul Kegan
I mean puplis who have been educated in comprehensive schools are better educated than pupils in who have been educated in selective schoos.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
Its what you said here that I'm taking issue with,
I do a working class job. Thinking on it those I work with who have children don't have a problem with the state schools their children go to.
One whose children are going to state school is talking to me about what Uni course his daughter wants to do. The first in his family experience who are going to Uni
Their main problems are cost of living.
I have not heard any of the people I work with complain about this extra cost on the well off middle classes. Its a non issue. Extra VAT that the well off middle classes will have to fork out does not even register on people I mix with every day as a topic to talk about.
Googling and among a particular section of the middle class this vat is causing resentment. I'm sure it is. But we live in a divided society and the concerns of the better off aren't my concerns or of the people I work with.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
So if they abolished them tomorrow thats ok then?
Mr Retro
Beware hedgehogs
So are you saying the state school system is in good shape and doesn’t need improvement? On that we can agree to disagree then.
PTK
Paul Kegan
I don't know. I am just repeating what I have heard.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
You mixing two issues.
The extra VAT on private schools.
Discussion on improving the state sector.
These are separate issues
If you are so concerned why not start a thread on improving the state sector.
I really do not understand why you are mixing together two separate issues as though they are linked. They aren't. Except it appears in the minds of the better off middle class who send their children to private schools.
Mr Retro
Beware hedgehogs
I men I don’t care from a tax/VAT/charitable status point of view. I would have a problem with abolishing them as I think people should be allowed to spend their money as they like. It’s not going to happen though so the point is moot.
Mr Retro
Beware hedgehogs
Read my first post.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
What there is is evidence that state educated students do better at University than privately educated students with the same entry grades.
It has also been claimed that the best pupil progress occurs in State schools (though I think is shakier ground).
Equally, one could argue that a State education is better 'socially' or in some other intangible soft skills. There is research showing that some parents from private school backrounds and/or economic strata choose state schools for their kids to to give them a "more diverse experience". Again, I'm not 100% convinced that this is a positive!
That said, I send my daughter to state school rather than the private one I work at.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
People should be able to spend their hard earned savings on hookers, crack and guns right?
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I have. I'm disagreeing with it.
You as some one well off enough to send your children to private school think this is an issue to start a thread on
I'm telling you as someone not that well off that the people I mix with on everyday basis aren't interested in the better off peoples concerns about VAT on private schools
PTK
Paul Kegan
There is no need for the faithful to worry about VAT on religious schools, for God will povide.
PTK
Paul Kegan
I can still remember that one of the first things awarded a grant by the National Lottery after it was launched in the 1990s was Eton School, for a new sports centre. "In 1995, the National Lottery granted £3 million towards a new sports complex, estimated to cost £4.6m, to add to Eton's existing facilities of two swimming pools, thirty cricket pitches, twenty-four football and hockey pitches, tennis courts, a gymnasium, and so on. The school was to pay £200,000 and contribute 4.5 hectares of land, in return for exclusive use of the facilities during the daytime only, and there would be community use at other times. The Sports Council defended the deal, on the grounds that the whole community would benefit, while the Eton College bursar stated that the Windsor, Slough and Eton Athletic Club was deprived and local people who were not pupils at the College did not have a world-class running track and facilities for training. Steve Osborn, director of the Safe Neighbourhoods Unit, described the decision as "staggering", given the background of a substantial reduction in youth services by councils across the country"
[Wikipedia]
[Wikipedia]
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
So going back to the OP then you said this on the extra VAT
So when you say you don't care what do you mean in light of your OP?
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
I’ve certainly read that used to apply to the first year at the very least, because private schools are more spoon fed. But secondary schools also sound pretty much like that now so
There are a lot of state schools around here with very good reputations, despite much of their catchment coming from economically deprived areas. If they have problems it seems largely to be down to curriculum, attendance (or rather compassionately managing those with lower attendance as individuals) and behaviour management issues, the first two being directly caused by government set standards and the latter indirectly linked. Funding of course is a huge problem but from the London teachers I know, so many staff go above and beyond to try and limit the impact of that (which they shouldn’t have to do of course
).
Agent Sparrow
the age of slippers and migraines
I also have done (mental health) work in two of the three private schools around here and pitched in the third. They’ve definitely also got their own problems -the girls school in particular was known in CAMHS as a hot bed for eating disorders and drugs problems. The school that didn’t accept us just felt weird in its pastoral care. Even if money was no object, I rather my kids went to state school than private, although I am also transparent with myself for really hoping they get into our first choice state school (mainly for SEN reasons).
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Bristol Uni did a study of their own results dating back decades. They found that, using A level results as a predictor of final degree class, those from state schools had on average one grade per exam lower for their A levels. So a kid from a private school with BBB at A level would be expected to achieve the same degree class as a kid from a state school with CCC at A level.I’ve certainly read that used to apply to the first year at the very least, because private schools are more spoon fed. But secondary schools also sound pretty much like that now so
They considered this result to be so statistically significant that they instituted a policy of making lower offers to kids from state schools. As you might imagine, much squealing resulted. I don't know if they're still doing it, but that same difference is likely to still hold.
freshapple
Active Member
This
ATOMIC SUPLEX
Member Since: 1985 Post Count: 3
When my daughter was having difficulty with anxiety in mock exam situations I was told by the schools mental healthcare woman we were sent to that after assessment options were available to extend exam time or have smaller groups that could take several breaks etc. It was a difficult process and ultimately I did not think our daughter was suffering with anything much more than being worried about her exam results. However the woman did mention that it was unfair that public schools could implement these 'extra measures' to anyone who needed them without outside interference. She said that the practice was being clamped down on, which was pissing off the public school boards, but was kind of difficult to police. Purely anecdotal of course.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
Come on, those things are far less damaging to society than public schools.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Sort of true. But also not true..
This is (part of) my job.
The process is exactly the same for State and Private schools. The oversight is exactly the same too
But, of course, private school pupils are at an advantage because of the resources their parents have (private diagnoses, the social capital and 'know how' to navigate the system etc ) and their schools have (specialist staff, dedicated time and space etc.)
It is becoming (much) harder to get additional time for exams because of this .
Wolveryeti
Detty Pig
This is an article citing 2 studies that suggest attainment is better at uni for state vs independent pupils with the same A level grade:
Top state school pupils 'get better degrees than those from private schools'
Researchers found state school pupils with A* grade A-levels were likely to get better degrees than those from private schools with similar A-level grades
This study suggests state schools outperform independents on core GCSE grades, once controlling for socioeconomic status: Private schools lose GCSE results edge after socioeconomic adjusting
This IFS study agrees private schools get better results overall but mainly because of their massively higher resourcing and ability to select. This is pretty damning for the case for independent schools because their ability to abstract the pupils with a predicted advantage (on a socioeconomic basis) in academic attainment imposes a disadvantage on the state sector, which has a correspondingly poorer peer group effect on learning.
"I argue – on the basis of both common sense and substantive evidence from recent literature on educational production functions – that the prime factor behind their effects on educational performance is likely to be the huge resource gap between the sectors, though the effect of the segmentation of pupils’ peer groups is surely important too. Evidence also shows that access to the private school system remains highly concentrated among affluent families, and that the bursary grants made available for low-income households by the schools themselves are too small to make a notable difference."
