Talk of a country gaining independence brings up notions of new institutions being constructed and a healthier political culture coming into being. That never happened for Ukraine after 1993, and the point I was making on this nihilistic thread, was that there are Ukrainian people who I have spoken to are resolved to changing that - although war is a barrier.
Perhaps it does, but notions are merely notions. And anyway, a new political culture and institutions
were created in Ukraine, Russia and the rest of the ex-USSR after the dissolution of the latter, but a demoralised, disoriented, impoverished and powerless population was always going to cede power to the oligarchs and their lackies. Don't know where 1993 comes into it, as Ukraine became formally independent in 1991.
You are completely wrong when you say that the youth wasn't formed against a backdrop of revolution and war. Its 9 years since the Maidan revolution started, immedietely followed by the ongoing Russo-Ukraine war. An 18-year old would have been 9. If that's not formative then I don't know what is.
An 18 year-old maybe, but I doubt if many 18 year-olds are going to be able to do anything decisive in the current period except vent their ire and, if idealistic, inevitably end up disappointed. And no group of teenagers thinks exactly the same things anyway, even in a war zone. But most of those growing up in post-independence Ukraine experienced a period of social peace (and economic hardship) up until 2005 (where the 'orange' events were mostly confined to Kiev and, to a lesser extent other big cities, and widely opposed by much of the population.) Between 2005 and 2014, there was no war or revolution in Ukraine.
As an aside to the future post-war topic here, I am actually genuinely interested in why you think the Maidan revolution was engineered by western powers. Nine years ago, the President was Yanukovych, who was elected on a pro-EU ticket, but who went on to align Ukraine with Russia instead, provoking student protests. That's not western engineered.
Western powers intervened directly in Ukraine in the run-up, during and after the Maidan events. Ex-Us presidential candidate John McCain went and addressed the Maidan crowds, which were reliant for their protection, and to drive events forward, on fascist militias. The student protests you speak of were influenced by that intervention even if their complaints might have arisen spontaneously. And as I said, they were to have their chance to vote out Yanukovich, a legitimately elected president in a deeply divided country, in forthcoming elections anyway. And could you imagine the US tolerating an hostile former Russian presidential candidate addressing anti-US crowds in, say, Mexico, given their interventions, for far less provocation, throughout Latin America over the decades?
I've watched the 2015 pro-Putin film 'Ukraine on Fire' hosted by Oliver Stone. So Mustafa who called the first student protest on Maidan square apparently did a US summer school hosted by the CIA. The protesters who were beaten and killed were 'human sacrifice' to western expansion, used as bait to lure out the apolitical masses into revolt against their innocent President. The order to open fire on protesters came not from him, but from another CIA cat, as the USA continually cultivated links with Ukrainian nationalists from 1945 until now, as a counter against Soviet Union / Russia. Is that what you believe in?
Never seen that Oliver Stone film. I have a feeling, however, that it might serve as a useful reminder that we live in a world full of different opnions, thoughts, motivations, contradictions and emotions.
Can you agree with me on this though? Normal people stood up for themselves in a big mess not of their own making. Their vision was aligned with an idealised "European values" (freedom, democracy, linguistic diversity, anti-corruption) but they now acknowledge that they idealised the EU as a white knight against the Russian/Yanukovych dragon. But that their lives, mentalities, hopes, beliefs and aspirations have been shaped by all of these events, and that they can put those values to use after the war finally forming new institutions and a healthier political culture three decades on from their independence, regardless of how they choose to relate to the EU and other blocs.
When you say normal people, I hope you mean ordinary people, as there is no normal. Plenty of other ordinary people opposed what the so-called orange revolution and Maidan purported to stand for, and not for evil reasons but because they felt themselves, rightly or wrongly, to be targets and scapegoats. I have no idea if the orange and Maidan enthusiasts now acknowledge any of what you say, and I don't see how you could know that they do. As for what will happen after a war that's far from over, that's anybody's guess. As ever, though, it is bound to be brutal whatever the outcome.
