weltweit
Well-Known Member
Yes, I updated my post above, found it, I am on 9.
UK coronavirus tracking app - discussion
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BCBlues
Lend us a Twenner
They may well still be if second and third waves hit us and I reckon they were very much part of the herd immunity project that cummings government were aiming for.
Not sure I'm really qualified to vote in the thread poll, because I dont even have a bloody smart phone 
And the main reason for my not having one (as well as general technophobia
) is that by comparison to simple basic phones, they murder battery life.
I know this because festivaldeb is constantly recharging hers ........
(In normal years, battery life is a big factor for us when we're at Glastonbury and other festivals).
From what I read in some peoples' posts in this thread, murdering battery life is (or could be) a central feature of this app.
I've no plans to upgrade to a smart phone anyway, because all I ever use my dim-phone for is texting and phoning.
So I've voted 'No Way Jose', but for pretty different reasons from the reasons given by other posters.
I do agree generally with the lack of trust people have in the technology of this project mind, but for my reasons, I'm relying on explanations earlier up from those who actually know about tech .......
Just to reassure though, I'd have no issues with actual human beings testing me, nor with them asking me verbal questions about my (limited number of) contacts ......
And the main reason for my not having one (as well as general technophobia
) is that by comparison to simple basic phones, they murder battery life. I know this because festivaldeb is constantly recharging hers ........
(In normal years, battery life is a big factor for us when we're at Glastonbury and other festivals).
From what I read in some peoples' posts in this thread, murdering battery life is (or could be) a central feature of this app.
I've no plans to upgrade to a smart phone anyway, because all I ever use my dim-phone for is texting and phoning.
So I've voted 'No Way Jose', but for pretty different reasons from the reasons given by other posters.
I do agree generally with the lack of trust people have in the technology of this project mind, but for my reasons, I'm relying on explanations earlier up from those who actually know about tech .......
Just to reassure though, I'd have no issues with actual human beings testing me, nor with them asking me verbal questions about my (limited number of) contacts ......
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
This graphic from the BBC, comparing how a centralised app works vs a decentralised one... Is the decentralised one depicted correctly? I don't think so...
My understanding was that nothing at all goes to a centralised database and that alerts are purely peer to peer, between local phones.
My understanding was that nothing at all goes to a centralised database and that alerts are purely peer to peer, between local phones.
Coronavirus: NHS reveals source code behind contact-tracing app
More than 40,000 people have downloaded the contact tracing app so far, ahead of a wider release.
www.bbc.co.uk
mauvais
on reddit or something
I think the diagram is correct. In your version of the idea, how do you get alerted when someone gets sick?This graphic from the BBC, comparing how a centralised app works vs a decentralised one... Is the decentralised one depicted correctly? I don't think so...
My understanding was that nothing at all goes to a centralised database and that alerts are purely peer to peer, between local phones.
View attachment 211373
Coronavirus: NHS reveals source code behind contact-tracing app
More than 40,000 people have downloaded the contact tracing app so far, ahead of a wider release.www.bbc.co.uk
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Some discussion on that here:
P2P contact tracing - a plausible/effective alternative to state surveillance?
I posted this in the worldwide coronavirus news thread earlier, but am not sure that's the place for it. I'd really like to hear some techy opinion on how decentralised (open source?) apps might work to help with preventing the spread of CV19 illness, and whether they would be successful in...
www.urban75.net
I think the answer to your question (and mine) depends on what the difference between a 'relay server' and a database is.
mauvais
on reddit or something
So (de)centralised in this context is talking about contacts, not infections.
In the centralised version the central database contains contacts and identified sickness. The response can be coordinated by the data owner. Clients (phones) are just dumb feeds with the ability to get alerted.
In the decentralised version the central database only contains sickness. Clients store contacts locally and figure out from these, by also getting the database, whether they met anyone who got sick.
In the centralised version the central database contains contacts and identified sickness. The response can be coordinated by the data owner. Clients (phones) are just dumb feeds with the ability to get alerted.
In the decentralised version the central database only contains sickness. Clients store contacts locally and figure out from these, by also getting the database, whether they met anyone who got sick.
ska invita
back on the other side
I think this is the thing i caught wind of - main story in the FT this morning
UK starts to build second contact tracing app
NHS team that built first app is told to build another on system being developed by Apple and Google
The NHS has already begun building a second smartphone app to trace the spread of the coronavirus, after criticism of the first app it launched this week on the Isle of Wight. The second NHS app will use technology provided by Google and Apple and is being developed “in parallel”, in case politicians decide to make a switch, according to two people familiar with the situation.
Matthew Gould, head of NHSX, the UK health service’s innovation arm, gave the go-ahead to the new project earlier this week. The decision to build an alternative to the NHS’s original app, which gathers more data in a central database, came after pressure within the government over the technical and ethical issues of its initial approach. One person involved said that talks with Apple and Google had intensified in the past few days, noting a sharp change of tack from last week to more “cordial and constructive” discussions “exploring how we might change course”.
The person said that, as testing had continued, the practicalities of making the first app work had become increasingly apparent. He noted a particular problem over its compatibility with the Apple iPhone, as well as broader worries about the implications for battery life. “These technical details end up being quite important,” he said. Recommended AnalysisNational Health Service Cancer patients face anxious wait as hospitals manage coronavirus risk Germany has already switched from its first app to using the smartphone makers’ standardised system.
But France has been vocal in its opposition to how the Google-Apple standard limits countries’ options and access to data, and will launch its own system next week. The UK’s efforts to create a second contact tracing app in parallel are more advanced than the feasibility study first disclosed through an NHS IT contract earlier this week. But no final decision has yet been made on which will be widely released. Apple and Google have said that they expect to release the first version of their contact tracing system for public use, via a software update to the iOS and Android operating systems, in mid-May.
The NHS contact tracing system currently being tested stores anonymised data about people infected with Covid-19 and their contacts in a central database, which advocates have argued is vital for detecting patterns of infection. By contrast, Google and Apple’s technology is largely decentralised and prevents gathering of additional data, such as location, that might be used to identify individuals. Mr Gould still sees potential issues with Apple and Google’s approach, such as detecting fraudulent reports of infection, according to people familiar with his thinking.
But he has maintained that he is not wedded to the current app. “I want to provide some reassurance that just because we’ve started down one route doesn’t mean we’re locked into it,” he told MPs at a hearing of parliament’s joint committee on human rights on Monday.
That stance contrasts with Ian Levy, technical director at GCHQ’s National Cyber Security Centre, who has been the lead advocate of a centralised system, writing a 4,000-word blog post about it on Monday. One person involved in the development of the app said NHSX was now feeling increasing pressure from parliament and privacy campaigners, despite Mr Levy’s assurances. A technical analysis of the app by Privacy International, published on Thursday, found that a loophole in app software could allow authorities access to detailed location data about users in future.
MPs on parliament’s human rights committee also said on Thursday that they had “significant concerns” about the app and called for new legislation guaranteeing data and human rights protections. Harriet Harman, the committee chair, said promises from ministers about privacy were not enough. NHSX said: “We’ve been working with Apple and Google throughout the app’s development and it’s quite right and normal to continue to refine the app.”
Editor’s note The Financial Times is making key coronavirus coverage free to read to help everyone stay informed.
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Makes sense. Ta
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
'Weekly pay' reads to me as 'we can fuck you off with zero notice as soon as the government gives up on contact tracing again'.
Best to just write the money off then
amp.theguardian.com
UK may ditch NHS contact-tracing app for Apple and Google model | Data protection | The Guardian
MPs and rights groups have warned lack of data protection could make UK app illegal
Best to just write the money off then
UK may ditch NHS contact-tracing app for Apple and Google model | Data protection | The Guardian
MPs and rights groups have warned lack of data protection could make UK app illegal
I read that earlier. That story doesn't leave me much more clued-up for the technical stuff really
But in terms of information about Government incompetence
, it;s pretty damned revealing 
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
It's a terrible article, clearly written and edited by people who have no idea of the issues. The only valuable information is that an alternative app is apparently being explored.I read that earlier. That story doesn't leave me much more clued-up for the technical stuff really
But in terms of information about Government incompetence
I don't know enough about the technology at all to judge that
I was only properly reading the political implications to be honest
farmerbarleymow
I'm Petee's spirit animal
Someone has taken apart the DPIA for the NHS app:
threadreaderapp.com
Thread by @mikarv: I've analysed the data protection impact assessment for the NHSX Isle of Wight App trial. It indicates very significant legal flaws. The pap…
Thread by @mikarv: I've analysed the data protection impact assessment for the NHSX Isle of Wight App trial. It indicates very significant laws. The paper I have written on it can be found here: osf.io/preprints/lawa…. I'll go through the main ones in…
threadreaderapp.com
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Fairly damningSomeone has taken apart the DPIA for the NHS app:
Thread by @mikarv: I've analysed the data protection impact assessment for the NHSX Isle of Wight App trial. It indicates very significant legal flaws. The pap…
Thread by @mikarv: I've analysed the data protection impact assessment for the NHSX Isle of Wight App trial. It indicates very significant laws. The paper I have written on it can be found here: osf.io/preprints/lawa…. I'll go through the main ones in…
Sunray
Its sunny somewhere.
Here is Apple and Googles not too technical explanation of how their system works.
It's totally anonymous and built deep into the phones operating system so power requirements can be carefully managed.
It would be very sensible to use this instead of baking your own. This will be released sometime this month.
It's totally anonymous and built deep into the phones operating system so power requirements can be carefully managed.
It would be very sensible to use this instead of baking your own. This will be released sometime this month.
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Part-timah
Well-Known Member
“Totally anonymous” my arse.
mauvais
on reddit or something
OS level integration is feasible - working much closer to the radio layer offers possibilities that apps simply don't have. It still has big user experience problems like power management, but maybe a compromise can be found.
The massive problem with this is how long it takes to roll out. On Apple, months. On Android, months, years, maybe never. It's 'value add' for the privileged few, not a viable mass mechanism.
I've said this before but maybe not here. If we wanted to do this seriously, forget phones. Build a purpose-specific device and give everyone one.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
"give"
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Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
bj has form for this sort of thing, of course, and he's not spaffed away the amount of taxpayers' money on this that he did on boris buses or the bonkers bridge. for which we should be glad.Best to just write the money off then
UK may ditch NHS contact-tracing app for Apple and Google model | Data protection | The Guardian
MPs and rights groups have warned lack of data protection could make UK app illegal
Sunray
Its sunny somewhere.
If you read the document it explains in detail how it's totally anonymous, it really is.
Your phone is generally within range of three 4g cell towers most of the time, the operator and anyone who has access to that data can tell where you've been. That data is kept forever, if this total lack of privacy bothers you and you own a 4g phone, chuck it and go back to using pay phones. There is a youtube channel idea for you.
Sunray
Its sunny somewhere.
Apple and Google have a lot of developers, in the thousands perhaps in the 10's of thousands, some of the most gifted in the world too. Apple and Google have unimaginable pots of cash to pay them. They say it's coming out this month, expect it this month.
You talk about delays, manufacturing millions of something that doesn't exist yet, to hand out to people when nearly everyone has a perfectly serviceable device already is kina dumb. Once the pandemic is done, those shiny devices go straight into landfill. Its a once in 100-300 year issue.
Its a useful tool for pandemics. This will evolve with the phone, if there is another in our lifetime, can be instantly activated. Pandemics don't happen often but if this was there from day one and everyone knew how to use it, would have saved lots of lives.
mauvais
on reddit or something
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter how long it takes them to develop the thing. It takes months or years or infinite time to deploy to devices. On Android it has to go through the OEM like Samsung or whoever. Probably the majority of devices are out of active support. The situation is better on iOS but you only need look at version distribution to see the lag.
It cannot.
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