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Tunisia - working class revolt

butchersapron said:
Pretty much all of the North African and Arab state today rest on the same social foundations - an extremely young population, often university educated, previously reliant on state employment of one form or another, employment that's being cut back as part of neo-liberal restructuring, along with fuel and food subsidies that are the complementary pay-off of the rurual poor to the urban state-employment programs. Political and economic organisation restricted to state-sanctioned (and ran/paid) initiatives, people working abroad in 'democratic' countries sending back crucial remittances to their families facing their own versions of austerity...

Interesting paper here Social Structure of Accumulation Theory for the Arab World: The Economies of Egypt, Jordan, and Kuwait in the Regional System (pdf) - today Kuwait announced £4 biilion worth of free food...
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Is that the non-oil rich arab nations you mean by that? I mean, UAE, Kuwait, Saudi don't sound much like that....(there is poverty in KSA, but nothing like Egypt's)
 
butchersapron said:
What are the army in tunsia? Conscripts? Resented? Nationals service kiddies? Pampered?
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Half and half. 1-year conscription provides border-guard fodder for the army, but standing establishment of 200,000+ regulars, plus French and US-trained (naturally!) special forces detachments.
Conscripts could fuck up Tunisian internal security if they strike, but that's unlikely, given the penalties (IIRC the Tunisian military still has a death sentence for treasonous crimes).
 
Streathamite said:
Oh, could such dreams come true?:D
<prays very hard>

<remembers he's an atheist>

<considers a sudden conversion> :D
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:D

Seriously, though, you can bet that the IDF has upped its' state of readiness (probably already activated the more specialist end of the reserves), and that tactical deployment has already started at various land borders.
 
ViolentPanda said:
:D

Seriously, though, you can bet that the IDF has upped its' state of readiness (probably already activated the more specialist end of the reserves), and that tactical deployment has already started at various land borders.
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and is actively rummaging through its bag of dirty tricks to ensure Mubarak doesn't fall. Ironically one of the smears that Mubarak will undoubtedly use is to blame any unrest on Zionism.
 
ViolentPanda said:
:D

Seriously, though, you can bet that the IDF has upped its' state of readiness (probably already activated the more specialist end of the reserves), and that tactical deployment has already started at various land borders.
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dylans said:
and is actively rummaging through its bag of dirty tricks to ensure Mubarak doesn't fall. Ironically one of the smears that Mubarak will undoubtedly use is to blame any unrest on Zionism.
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This all sounds depressingly realistic.
 
I don't think Israel will be overly concerned. They have a siege mentality, and it's not as if they have any particular trust or regard for those Arab states that are also allies of the US. If anything, this will play well into some of their dogma (the whole Arab world wants to eradicate them) and be useful for screwing more military aid from the US.

Better informed people than me could well see something I'm missing, but I don't see even the fall of Saud and Egypt really making any real difference to the level of military might that could be thrown against them. My understanding is that Israel's military is geared towards a unified opposing threat from the relevant arab nations, including the currently neutral ones.
 
dylans said:
You're an idiot. First you loudly (and correctly) state that the government doesn't speak for "us" (though your claim that the Queen has any executive power in a Parliamentary democracy is a bit bizarre)

Then in the next breath. You claim NATO, the US government and the oil corporations do

You attack other posters for supposedly identifying their interests with the "West" (even though have done nothing of the sort)

and then do exactly this yourself
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The United Kingdom government goes by the name of "Her Majesty's Government" (HMG) and the courts are presided over by judges with royal warrants. All executive authority in this kingdom is unsurprisingly in the name of the monarch.

"Parliamentary democracy" is a lie, a self-deception even, mouthed by those parliamentarians who have surrendered their honour and dignity and the rights of people to the monarchy.

The "crown in parliament" is closer to the undemocratic truth.

When I include myself as acting in a joint venture which I support with a group of people, I use the term "we" to describe the group.

If I oppose what a group of people are doing, I do not use the term "we" to describe that group of people. Simple. :cool:



dylans said:
This is utterly bizarre. Rice was no friend of the Tunisian people.
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Yes she was and is.

dylans said:
The US government allies itself with the regimes in these countries on the condition they allow corporate rape of their economies.
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The US government has no worse a record than any other government and better in many respects.

dylans said:
Rice herself bears responsibility for the invasion of Iraq
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To her credit.

dylans said:
and the death of up to a million Iraqis.
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It is a lie to blame Rice for the deaths.

The truth would be to blame the terrorists, agents of neighbouring Arab and Iranian dictators and monarchs, sectarian militias, and their propagandists who cheered on that terrible slaughter under the excuse of "the resistance to occupation".


dylans said:
You say that the US government supports democratic movements in North Africa
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I say Rice does. Rice is not the US government though she did work for it.


dylans said:
But then fail to explain why the US has supported the regimes in Tunisia and Egypt for decades. Take the case of Egypt

50 billion to shore up Mubarak!. Please explain how this indicates support for democratic movements in Egypt? No.
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I did take the case of Egypt. In post 158.

Peter Dow said:
Nilesat is the Egyptian dictator's Mubarak's state satellite service. The fact that the US gives so much aid to Egypt some of which Mubarak uses against the US should lead to questions about how US money is being spent.

How much would it cost to aid Egypt the best way possible and hire an assassin to take out Mubarak? Certainly much less than the £2 billion a year Egypt reportedly gets from the US in aid money.
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My explanation for the lack of democracy despite all that cash poured in is gross inefficiency.


Peter Dow said:
The West has only one interest in the region. Strong pro western dictatorships that guarantee stability.The word democracy is thrown around as long as democracy produces governments that are suitable to Western interests. God help them if they (as Algeria did in the 90s) vote for governments not to the West's liking. In the 1990s Algeria held elections which Islamists won. What was the response? The elections were cancelled and 150.000 people died. What was the response of the US government to this disgrace? They supported the Algerian government in cancelling the election and stood silently as they crushed the democratically elected opposition and drowned the country in blood.
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The important point to note that it is not democratic to allow an undemocratic political/military party/army to get exclusive state power which which to exterminate those whose views it will not tolerate.

In particular with reference to those Arab-Muslim countries the jihadi groups are waging a war of extermination against other views and allowing them total power would be a defeat for democracy.

Democracy is about "government by all the people". Democracy implies that the people who are not elected, who are not in office, who lose elections, nevertheless are afforded a certain amount of constitutional power.

The idea of elections delivering all power to the winners leaving the losers as lumps of meat to be tossed into the furnaces is a profoundly undemocratic idea.

To have a democracy a state must first of all defeat the enemies of democracy in war. Once a party has surrendered to democratic principles then it is safe to allow such a party a place, an office in government, not before.
 
Streathamite said:
Huh? Gaddafi is the only arab leader who has consistently given support and succour to terrorists - the rest is just lies.
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Gaddafi is not the only dictator allied to terrorists.

Mubarak's Nilesat broadcast pro-terror TV as shown in this video I previously posted.






The Arab satellites broadcast similar pro-terror TV and feature pro-terror jihadi clerics justifying it all as well.










Streathamite said:
And the whole point of the jihadist grievances are that they are defensive ones, in that they want the USA & co to stop intervening so strongly in the arab and muslim worlds, either directly (invading Iraq) or indirectly (propping up the House Of Saud, supporting Israel).
Get real Peter - or get better informed
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The jihadi groups such as Al Qaeda are secret agents of the Arab monarchs and dictators with which to terrorise the liberal west who want to encourage the growth of democracy in the middle east and world wide.

The kings and dictators like having absolute power and so they stoke up the jihadis against the west to terrorise the west with a message along the lines of -

"accept that us kings and dictators must be allowed to continue to rule here or you'll get the jihadis ruling here instead and far more problems if you undermine our position; so just lay off your demands and support for democrats here".​

It is no way to fight the war on terror to cave in to such a threat. The west needs to strike directly at the enemy, taking out the enemy heads of state.

If we can't reach the monarchs or dictators so easily then at least take out their propaganda satellites etc.
 
Lemon Eddy said:
Better informed people than me could well see something I'm missing, but I don't see even the fall of Saud and Egypt really making any real difference to the level of military might that could be thrown against them. My understanding is that Israel's military is geared towards a unified opposing threat from the relevant arab nations, including the currently neutral ones.
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the point is that one of the greatest hislorical guarantors of Israeli survival was the unwillingness of most arab regimes to do more than pay lip service (and to donate the PLO shedloads) to the palestinian struggle. The ordinary arab-in-the-street feels far more passionate about the issue than either the House Of Saud or mubarak & co, therefore regimes which are more democratic and more attuned to their people's aspirations and feelings may well take hostility to Israel ansd support for Palestine into whole new waters. It is worth remembering that Arabs other than Palestinians have gone to war over the issue just twice; this does not reflect the intensity of arab feelings on this issue
 
Streathamite said:
the point is that one of the greatest hislorical guarantors of Israeli survival was the unwillingness of most arab regimes to do more than pay lip service (and to donate the PLO shedloads) to the palestinian struggle. The ordinary arab-in-the-street feels far more passionate about the issue than either the House Of Saud or mubarak & co, therefore regimes which are more democratic and more attuned to their people's aspirations and feelings may well take hostility to Israel ansd support for Palestine into whole new waters. It is worth remembering that Arabs other than Palestinians have gone to war over the issue just twice; this does not reflect the intensity of arab feelings on this issue
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Indeed. Also worth remembering that Mubarak has been very keen on enforcing the blockade of Gaza since 2001 and especially since 2007. Egypt has collaborated with Israel on all aspects of the blockade. It even constructed an underground steel wall, 60 metres deep along the border in 2010 to prevent Gaza digging smuggling tunnels. It is not Israeli troops who enforce the blockade along Egypts border, it is Egyptians.
Maintaining close ties to Israel is a condition of the 2 billion a year "aid" package Egypt recieves from the USA and this relationship with Israel is resented by every ordinary Arab across the region. A revolution in Egypt is not likely to produce a regime to Tel Aviv's liking.
 
Still plenty of uncertainty, and old faces still in prominent positions, but at least some of what was announced today sounds good:


All political parties will be allowed to operate in Tunisia, political prisoners will be freed and the media will be permitted "total freedom", Mr Ghannouchi said.

"We have decided to free all the people imprisoned for their ideas, their beliefs or for having expressed dissenting opinions," the AFP news agency reported him as saying.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12209621
 
Streathamite said:
the ruling party is still in place. The key issue is whether they honour their promises on elections
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. Demonstrators are on the streets of Tunis. They are calling for the fall of the entire regime, a new constitution and the release of political prisoners. They are being met with riot police firing tear gas. The revolution continues
 
British foreign secretary on TV tonight. Asked the question what is the position of the British government.

"We want to see the streets as quiet as possible. Whatever is happening with the politicians cannot be helped by further demonstrations."

Massive cunt.
I want to see more people on the streets. I want to see the entire Tunisian population on the streets demanding the overthrow of the entire stinking regime and refusing to accept this charade of "national unity government." The revolution is not finished and will have won nothing until the whole regime is swept aside.

And I think this is going to happen.
 
dylans said:
British foreign secretary on TV tonight. Asked the question what is the position of the British government.

"We want to see the streets as quiet as possible. Whatever is happening with the politicians cannot be helped by further demonstrations."

Massive cunt.
I want to see more people on the streets. I want to see the entire Tunisian population on the streets demanding the overthrow of the entire stinking regime and refusing to accept this charade of "national unity government." The revolution is not finished and will have won nothing until the whole regime is swept aside.

And I think this is going to happen.
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The hand on the shoulder of colonialism can't be seen to rear its ugly head. Nor can any challenge to the established order, in the general scheme of things. Tv cannot be relied on for any kind of accurate reportage of such incidents or events, but whether the revolution will be televised....;)
 
dylans said:
British foreign secretary on TV tonight. Asked the question what is the position of the British government.

"We want to see the streets as quiet as possible. Whatever is happening with the politicians cannot be helped by further demonstrations."

Massive cunt.
I want to see more people on the streets. I want to see the entire Tunisian population on the streets demanding the overthrow of the entire stinking regime and refusing to accept this charade of "national unity government." The revolution is not finished and will have won nothing until the whole regime is swept aside.

And I think this is going to happen.
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Yes, clearly we ought to expect a Tory foreign secretary to call for workers' revolution.

Luckily, when he doesn't, it gives people a chance to call him a cunt on the internet. Which makes people feels better.
 
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