Transgender hate crimes recorded by police go up 81%

[Santino]

I’m amazed how much this particular issue comes up. The proportion of trans women in society is tiny. The proportion of elite athletes is also tiny. The intersection of the two tiny groups is a tiny tiny subset. How many elite athlete trans women have I met? None at all. Never mind breaking that down into particular sports. Elite professional tennis playing trans women? I’ve not even heard of one.

I’m surprised anyone has the energy or headspace to have an opinion on this, never mind get all worked up about it on the internet.

Danny, when you wrote this did you realise that it's a part of a long history of men telling women that their concerns aren't rational or relevant? And if you did, did you think that it was actually ok because you understand that there are more important things to 'get all worked up about'?

 

[danny la rouge]

Danny, when you wrote this did you realise that it's a part of a long history of men telling women that their concerns aren't rational or relevant? And if you did, did you think that it was actually ok because you understand that there are more important things to 'get all worked up about'?

Well in my experience, which of course is only that of one person and is limited, I have only seen men raise this particular concern. And I’ve only made this observation on Urban since actually this is not a topic I have discussed in person or on any other forum. But some of the likes my post got were from women. And the only objection of any sort I’m aware of is from you.

Does that mean anything? I don’t know. But I’m not sure if me having a difference of opinion from you can be classed as “mansplaining”, if that is what you’re suggesting.

I should also, to put all my cards on the table, declare that I have very little interest (meaning none) in competitive sports of any kind.

 

[Santino]

Well in my experience, which of course is only that of one person and is limited, I have only seen men raise this particular concern. And I’ve only made this observation on Urban since actually this is not a topic I have discussed in person or on any other forum. But some of the likes my post got were from women. And the only objection of any sort I’m aware of is from you.

Does that mean anything? I don’t know. But I’m not sure if me having a difference of opinion from you can be classed as “mansplaining”, if that is what you’re suggesting.

I should also, to put all my cards on the table, declare that I have very little interest (meaning none) in competitive sports of any kind.

If your only knowledge of the subject is men raising the issue on these boards then perhaps there is more you could learn about it.

 

[Santino]

Can you think of any reasons why women don't register their opinions on some of these issues?

 

[Yossarian]

Can you think of any reasons why women don't register their opinions on some of these issues?

Because Santino is here to speak for them?

 

[danny la rouge]

If your only knowledge of the subject is men raising the issue on these boards then perhaps there is more you could learn about it.

About trans women in professional sports? I’m happy to admit there’s probably a great deal I don’t know about the issue.

 

[danny la rouge]

Can you think of any reasons why women don't register their opinions on some of these issues?

I apologise if I’m reading this wrong, but it does seem a fairly passive aggressive line of argument. Would you care to be more direct?

 

[Santino]

I apologise if I’m reading this wrong, but it does seem a fairly passive aggressive line of argument. Would you care to be more direct?

I contend that some women have withdrawn from these debates because they get called names and told that their concerns aren't important.

 

[smmudge]

I contend that some women have withdrawn from these debates because they get called names and told that their concerns aren't important.

Well guess what women don't need your white knighting either thanks.

 

[krtek a houby]

I contend that some women have withdrawn from these debates because they get called names and told that their concerns aren't important.

There's several women, including trans and terf leaning women who don't post on threads like these anymore.

 

[ddraig]

I contend that some women have withdrawn from these debates because they get called names and told that their concerns aren't important.

Any examples?

 

[danny la rouge]

I contend that some women have withdrawn from these debates because they get called names and told that their concerns aren't important.

I’m aware that these debates have been toxic in the past. I’m aware that this is true for women of many perspectives. And indeed for people of many points on the gender spectrum. It’s a real problem, and I hope it can be overcome. I’ve personally come to the conclusion that it will only be overcome through respectful and honest discussion.

If you are suggesting that I am personally responsible for contributing towards keeping women away from this thread, then I will have to rethink the way I contribute.

It is obviously a matter for calibration. For a long time I excused myself from these debates on these boards because of the toxicity, because my own mental health was suffering and the debates were doing it no good. I have come to realise that was a cop out because if I found it tough, then there are others who have so to speak skin in the game (if I’m using that sporting expression correctly) who must find it even tougher.

I have been publicly called out indirectly (but in a way that people who know me would know who was meant) by a person who has posted on these boards and who also has a role in the social media accounts of AFed for allegedly not being robust enough in defending trans people specifically on Urban and also in general. (I am a person who left the ACG and subsequently cofounded the ACN because of events related to the topic). I don’t hold that person in especially high regard, but the point I’m making is that anyone who speaks up at all gets it from all sides. And in the telling, disagreements on nuances get amplified into more polar perspectives, especially on social media. This does nobody any good.

So if anyone feels excluded from this thread because of me, then that would not be an outcome I’d feel good about. But I’ll continue to try to calibrate the way I speak on it, and I will continue to speak on it if so moved.

 

[lazythursday]

Danny, when you wrote this did you realise that it's a part of a long history of men telling women that their concerns aren't rational or relevant? And if you did, did you think that it was actually ok because you understand that there are more important things to 'get all worked up about'?

This is completely unfair on Danny and suggesting that women don't have a multiplicity of views on this topic. Some women have concerns about abortion and want to make it illegal - if I argue against them am I mansplaining? This line of argument is nothing more than a tactic to close down debate.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

It's true that many women have stopped posting on this subject. But I'm absolutely certain it's got nothing to do with danny la rouge's posts.

 

[Spymaster]

Well in my experience, which of course is only that of one person and is limited, I have only seen men raise this particular concern. And I’ve only made this observation on Urban since actually this is not a topic I have discussed in person or on any other forum. But some of the likes my post got were from women. And the only objection of any sort I’m aware of is from you.

So many posters, both male and female, are now avoiding these threads, either for fear of being shouted down as bigots or out of reticence to upset trans members, that almost the only remaining participants are the ardent trans allies. As such, any attempt to impute broader agreement from likes or posts on these boards is severe folly.

 

[Lotte]

Danny, when you wrote this did you realise that it's a part of a long history of men telling women that their concerns aren't rational or relevant? And if you did, did you think that it was actually ok because you understand that there are more important things to 'get all worked up about'?

I'm a woman and I posted similar. Plenty of women dislike TERFs and feel that they don't speak for us. Especially given some of their allies.

 

[Lotte]

So many posters, both male and female, are now avoiding these threads, either for fear of being shouted down as bigots or out of reticence to upset trans members, that almost the only remaining participants are the ardent trans allies. As such, any attempt to impute broader agreement from likes or posts on these boards is severe folly.

There are plenty of other forums where you can complain about trans people to your hearts' content. Mumsnet and your average football forum, for starters.

 

[danny la rouge]

So many posters, both male and female, are now avoiding these threads, either for fear of being shouted down as bigots or out of reticence to upset trans members, that almost the only remaining participants are the ardent trans allies. As such, any attempt to impute broader agreement from likes or posts on these boards is severe folly.

My next paragraph did address that point:

Does that mean anything? I don’t know. But I’m not sure if me having a difference of opinion from you can be classed as “mansplaining”, if that is what you’re suggesting.

 

[Spymaster]

There are plenty of other forums where you can complain about trans people to your hearts' content.

I don't want to complain about them at all. I doubt many others do either.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

So now we've got back to the stage where, in the absence of any TERFs on this thread, we have men speaking for them instead. And this is where i fucked off before.

I have tried to discuss this with TERFs or women with "concerns" one to one, as they have so often claimed they want, but it always results in me being accused of being an angry man, an abusive man, a child abuser, or something else, usually involving genitals. They're not here i suspect because they can't string a decent argument together and they've been told to stop being abusive. Now if only we could get the misogynists who speak for them to fuck off too.

Reply if you want to but I'll be away for the time being. And i'm putting this tread on ignore.

 

[Yossarian]

So many posters, both male and female, are now avoiding these threads, either for fear of being shouted down as bigots or out of reticence to upset trans members, that almost the only remaining participants are the ardent trans allies. As such, any attempt to impute broader agreement from likes or posts on these boards is severe folly.

I long avoided posting much on threads about trans issues because I thought cis men were already drowning out other voices, after some excellent trans posters and their allies felt they had to leave, I wished I had spoken out more

 

[ElizabethofYork]

So now we've got back to the stage where, in the absence of any TERFs on this thread, we have men speaking for them instead. And this is where i fucked off before.

I have tried to discuss this with TERFs or women with "concerns" one to one, as they have so often claimed they want, but it always results in me being accused of being an angry man, an abusive man, a child abuser, or something else, usually involving genitals. They're not here i suspect because they can't string a decent argument together and they've been told to stop being abusive. Now if only we could get the misogynists who speak for them to fuck off too.

Reply if you want to but I'll be away for the time being. And i'm putting this tread on ignore.

Which men are speaking for TERFs?

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

I’m aware that these debates have been toxic in the past. I’m aware that this is true for women of many perspectives. And indeed for people of many points on the gender spectrum. It’s a real problem, and I hope it can be overcome. I’ve personally come to the conclusion that it will only be overcome through respectful and honest discussion.

I still haven't seen a trans woman being abusive, i've only ever seen them bend over backwards to try to discuss this rationally, and then use robust language when these are thrown back at us with smears and lies. I have seen nothing but lies and smears from so called TERFs and the men that stand up for them.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

About trans women in professional sports? I’m happy to admit there’s probably a great deal I don’t know about the issue.

It's gone way beyond professional or elite sports now. It's going after trans women in amateur sport, in school sports and non-competitive sports now too. It's an ideological purge is all. There were no actual concerns.

 

[danny la rouge]

I still haven't seen a trans woman being abusive,

I hope I didn’t give the impression I was saying that I had. What I’ve seen is, what I presume are, people who imagine they’re allies being abusive.

I also saw one of the best political posters on these boards being accused of transphobia on this thread after getting a term mixed up (in good faith). I don’t know the gender identity of the person who made the accusations, nor do I know what traumas or suffering they’ve had in their life that led to the way they spoke, but summarily condemning a person of good sense and reason as a transphobe or TERF wasn’t helpful to the debate.

 

[redsquirrel]

Of course there are a multiplicity of views from all genders but might be worth thinking about the fact that polling consistently shown has women more supportive (in broad terms) of trans rights than men.
Eg. Support for separate toilets for men and women, and gender neutral toilets in public spaces

 

[Lotte]

So now we've got back to the stage where, in the absence of any TERFs on this thread, we have men speaking for them instead. And this is where i fucked off before.

I have tried to discuss this with TERFs or women with "concerns" one to one, as they have so often claimed they want, but it always results in me being accused of being an angry man, an abusive man, a child abuser, or something else, usually involving genitals. They're not here i suspect because they can't string a decent argument together and they've been told to stop being abusive. Now if only we could get the misogynists who speak for them to fuck off too.

Reply if you want to but I'll be away for the time being. And i'm putting this tread on ignore.

Ah yes, the old 'everyone who disagrees with me is a man' line. Or if you're Glinner, 'everyone who disagrees with me is a handmaiden/antisemite/homophobe.'

I really do not like the way misogynistic men hide behind women's rights and use it as an excuse to attack trans women. If Matt Walsh, a man who celebrated when Roe vs Wade was overturned, cares about women's rights, I'm fucking the entire Man United squad.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

I also saw one of the best political posters on these boards being accused of transphobia on this thread after getting a term mixed up (in good faith). I don’t know the gender identity of the person who made the accusations, nor do I know what traumas or suffering they’ve had in their life that led to the way they spoke, but summarily condemning a person of good sense and reason as a transphobe or TERF wasn’t helpful to the debate.

i can see both sides of this one.

the 'acceptable' or 'PC' terms for minorities do change over time - be that round (for example) black / coloured, acceptable terms for people with learning disabilities or mental health issues, or re-claiming 'queer' (as a gay man of a certain age, i still have to restrain an instinctive urge to take a swing at anyone who calls me 'queer') and some people aren't quite up to date with some of it.

if someone uses a wrong word, or refers to someone as he / she by mistake once, then a polite word is not unreasonable. if they intentionally carry on after the polite word, then yes they are being a twunt and deserve all they get.

but having said that, while we (in the UK) haven't quite yet reached the stage of mainstream politicians calling for the LBGTQ community to be 'erased' (as in this twat in america) - i can understand trans people in particular having a bit of a short fuse. it's not paranoia if a lot of people are out to get you...

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

I hope I didn’t give the impression I was saying that I had. What I’ve seen is, what I presume are, people who imagine they’re allies being abusive.

I also saw one of the best political posters on these boards being accused of transphobia on this thread after getting a term mixed up (in good faith). I don’t know the gender identity of the person who made the accusations, nor do I know what traumas or suffering they’ve had in their life that led to the way they spoke, but summarily condemning a person of good sense and reason as a transphobe or TERF wasn’t helpful to the debate.

I've corrected people before and they have gone on to freak the fuck out and accuse me of trying to cancel them or some bollocks, including people who i assumed were supportive and wanted to learn. So i have to say cis people generally are pretty fuckin weird when it comes to discussing trans issues.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

i can see both sides of this one.

the 'acceptable' or 'PC' terms for minorities do change over time - be that round (for example) black / coloured, acceptable terms for people with learning disabilities or mental health issues, or re-claiming 'queer' (as a gay man of a certain age, i still have to restrain an instinctive urge to take a swing at anyone who calls me 'queer') and some people aren't quite up to date with some of it.

if someone uses a wrong word, or refers to someone as he / she by mistake once, then a polite word is not unreasonable. if they intentionally carry on after the polite word, then yes they are being a twunt and deserve all they get.

but having said that, while we (in the UK) haven't quite yet reached the stage of mainstream politicians calling for the LBGTQ community to be 'erased' (as in this twat in america) - i can understand trans people in particular having a bit of a short fuse. it's not paranoia if a lot of people are out to get you...

i'd like to know the specifics before saying anything about this, because an incident like this can be interpreted a thousand ways by a thousand different people. I have seen cis people freak the fuck out over nothing and then double down to become the worst sort of transphobe- i believe this was Glinner's arc.