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Tommy Robinson, the court case and (guffaw) 'free speech'

That's a bit worrying. The people holding a demo in support of Tommy Robinson - do they not understand at all why he's inside pleasuring her Majesty? I mean, genuinely think he's a mistreated martyr? I'd have thought even television news might have made it clear but it's alarming if people fall for this rubbish. Oh well, with luck they'll only get half a dozen crazies and just look daft.
 
Celyn said:
That's a bit worrying. The people holding a demo in support of Tommy Robinson - do they not understand at all why he's inside pleasuring her Majesty? I mean, genuinely think he's a mistreated martyr? I'd have thought even television news might have made it clear but it's alarming if people fall for this rubbish. Oh well, with luck they'll only get half a dozen crazies and just look daft.
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they'll get loads
people are not interested in the facts sadly
seen some discussions where people are presented with the facts and links but either don't read them or keep calling bullshit and conspiracy
 
The problem with this stuff is the left will find it difficult to argue with because the "left" like to at least imagine they use facts and are rational and normal politics has some relationship to facts you make think Tory economic policy is bollocks but its economic policy aimed at making the rich richer. Rather than an economic policy aimed at keeping Muslim nonce gangs out of the city:eek:.
you got really angry people who have latched onto a target and really don't want facts or hated experts getting in the way:mad:
post factual politics :facepalm:
 
LynnDoyleCooper said:
Think this is exposing some pretty grim things that are ascendant in UK politics. There's a growing nationalist and patriotic street movement that's engaging people partly on the grounds of free speech and some form of class politics fighting against 'elites'. Do think things are quite volatile and potentially scary atm.

The left is struggling to know how to react I think. There's a demo in the town I live in for Tommy Robinson and all the left can think of is go down and take photos like they're a few neo-nazis and we're trying to find out where they live.
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A lot of "anti fascism" seems to be about manipulating the situation at hand to allow for some kind of squad/affinity group action regardless of how effective that would be.
 
likesfish said:
The problem with this stuff is the left will find it difficult to argue with because the "left" like to at least imagine they use facts and are rational and normal politics has some relationship to facts you make think Tory economic policy is bollocks but its economic policy aimed at making the rich richer. Rather than an economic policy aimed at keeping Muslim nonce gangs out of the city:eek:.
you got really angry people who have latched onto a target and really don't want facts or hated experts getting in the way:mad:
post factual politics :facepalm:
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Yup, you get them blatantly ignoring actual legal professionals telling them that this is how the system works. Also it doesn't help that a lot of them genuinely believe that 'liberals' are so PC that they will actually condone anything done by anyone who isn't white.
 
Working class people see wages declining in real terms, services overstretched, precarious housing etc.. But the mainstream left fights shy of talking about the root cause of those very real problems i.e. capitalism. Because it's been colonised by people whose interests are served by the status quo i.e. middle-class careerists. (Often their only claim to being of the left is the conflation of that term with liberalism, which we've seen on this thread.)

Which leaves a space for the right to position themselves as the ones who care/have the answers. The owners of capital laughing whilst workers turn on each other, fighting for scraps. Helped by the useful idiots of an increasingly popular strain IDPol whose aspirations for justice amount to how those scraps are divided, rather than questioning why workers aren't at the table.

We can sneer at ignorant proles ignoring facts and experts, but the reality is these politics are often born more of desperation than anything else. Whilst there's a small hardcore of committed fascists, the majority of people who are increasingly sharing this stuff on social media aren't (they've been exploited and duped by them). Largely, they just want to push back against the liberals who've done fuck all but abandon or patronise them.

The answer must be for workers to organise to build solidarity and win back the left from the bottom up.
 
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Athos said:
Working class people see wages declining in real terms, services overstretched, precarious housing etc.. But the mainstream left fights shy of talking about the root cause of those very real problems i.e. capitalism. Because it's been colonised by people whose interests are served by the status quo i.e. middle-class careerists. (Often their only claim to being of the left is the conflation of that term with liberalism, which we've seen on this thread.)

Which leaves a space for the right to position themselves as the ones who care/have the answers. The owners of capital laughing whilst workers turn on each other, fighting for scraps.

We can sneer at ignorant proles ignoring facts and experts, but the reality is these politics are often born more of desperation than anything else. Whilst there's a small hardcore of committed fascists, the majority of people who are increasingly sharing this stuff on social media aren't (they've been exploited and duped by them). Largely, they just want to push back against the liberals who've done fuck all but abandon or patronise them.

The answer must be for workers to organise to build solidarity and win back the left from the bottom up.
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So says somebody in every meeting on the subject I've ever been to. What's the plan? What's the first step?
 
Red Sky said:
So says somebody in every meeting on the subject I've ever been to. What's the plan? What's the first step?
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Well, that's the more difficult bit! I'd say a start would be all doing our bit in community activity, where we live and work. The long term building of something positive as a class, rather than an over-reliance on one-off set-piece protests and single issues. And an explicit rejection of being co-opted by a political class. And trying to break down the conflation of 'left' and 'liberal' at every opportunity. And, when we hear this shit in pubs or at the school gate, challenge it in a way that shows empathy for what's at the root, rather than shrill condemnation.
 
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Athos said:
Well, that's the more difficult bit! I'd say a start would be all doing our bit in community activity, where we live and work. The long term building of something positive as a class, rather than an over-reliance on one-off set-piece protests and single issues. And an explicit rejection of being co-opted by a political class. And trying to break down the conflation of 'left' and 'liberal' at every opportunity. And, when we hear this shit in pubs or at the school gate, challenge it in a way that shows empathy for what's at the root, rather than shrill condemnation.
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What's your experience of doing this? How did it work out? Any lessons?
 
Athos said:
Working class people see wages declining in real terms, services overstretched, precarious housing etc.. But the mainstream left fights shy of talking about the root cause of those very real problems i.e. capitalism. Because it's been colonised by people whose interests are served by the status quo i.e. middle-class careerists. (Often their only claim to being of the left is the conflation of that term with liberalism, which we've seen on this thread.)

Which leaves a space for the right to position themselves as the ones who care/have the answers. The owners of capital laughing whilst workers turn on each other, fighting for scraps. Helped by the useful idiots of an increasingly popular strain IDPol whose aspirations for justice amount to how those scraps are divided, rather than questioning why workers aren't at the table.

We can sneer at ignorant proles ignoring facts and experts, but the reality is these politics are often born more of desperation than anything else. Whilst there's a small hardcore of committed fascists, the majority of people who are increasingly sharing this stuff on social media aren't (they've been exploited and duped by them). Largely, they just want to push back against the liberals who've done fuck all but abandon or patronise them.

The answer must be for workers to organise to build solidarity and win back the left from the bottom up.
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Nail. Meet. Head! :cool:
 
Athos said:
Well, that's the more difficult bit! I'd say a start would be all doing our bit in community activity, where we live and work. The long term building of something positive as a class, rather than an over-reliance on one-off set-piece protests and single issues. And an explicit rejection of being co-opted by a political class. And trying to break down the conflation of 'left' and 'liberal' at every opportunity. And, when we hear this shit in pubs or at the school gate, challenge it in a way that shows empathy for what's at the root, rather than shrill condemnation.
Click to expand...

There are dangers in assuming that the far right is powered by some kind of misguided leftism.
 
Red Sky said:
What's your experience of doing this? How did it work out? Any lessons?
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Long and varied, with admittedly mixed results.

Some workplace and local amenity campaigns have been very successful, as have efforts to prevent right wing infiltration of my football club (Luton). Crucial factors there being a setting shared interest in something tangible.

Other campaigns, have been less successful. The sticking points being a less well defined goal, and no end in sight.

Ironically, I believe the latter to have been more important though.

I try to do the day-to-day stuff as it comes up e.g. when some of these views are raised in casual conversation.

So I guess I'm saying I don't have the answers; I peaked at restating the problem!
 
Athos said:
Long and varied, with admittedly mixed results.

Some workplace and local amenity campaigns have been very successful, as have efforts to prevent right wing infiltration of my football club (Luton). Crucial factors there being a setting shared interest in something tangible.

Other campaigns, have been less successful. The sticking points being a less well defined goal, and no end in sight.

Ironically, I believe the latter to have been more important though.

I try to do the day-to-day stuff as it comes up e.g. when some of these views are raised in casual conversation.

So I guess I'm saying I don't have the answers; I peaked at restating the problem!
Click to expand...

Luton? Fair to say you've had mixed results then?
 
redsquirrel said:
How dreadful. Should go back to their boxes and let the professionals get on with it. Like those silly Italian voters electing the wrong parties.
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In this case, yes, people should listen to professionals.

Ignorance of how and why the legal system acts as it does is being used to fan the flames of the idea that Robinson is the victim of some kind of conspiracy rather than a man being arrested for the thing he was told he would be arrested for if attempting it again. And far better they have it explained by people qualified in law than some random punter like me, for example.

It's not at all the same thing as telling people they voted for the 'wrong party' which is much more subjective
 
Celyn said:
That's a bit worrying. The people holding a demo in support of Tommy Robinson - do they not understand at all why he's inside pleasuring her Majesty? I mean, genuinely think he's a mistreated martyr? I'd have thought even television news might have made it clear but it's alarming if people fall for this rubbish. Oh well, with luck they'll only get half a dozen crazies and just look daft.
Click to expand...

Ref to last bit would be a bit like the EU love in anti Brexit march then , that was a piss poor turnout.
The support for Robinson has shocked me looking at some sites the last week or so.
One of my relatives writes blogs and she has had a torrent of abuse for saying things about Robinson
She is even thinking of packing it in.
The police must be loving all these marches with the overtime and the rewards.

On this thread i see a list of shame for him Mortgage fraud etc and "football violence" ???. i had never heard of that one
Never knew he was a football fan , was wondering if this was at a enger-land game
 
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