to those raised in religious household, did you actually find hell scary?

[mather]

I think Judaism is very much more about this life than the next, there's very little focus on the afterlife as a means of punishment & reward. But if you're very bad you won't get to rise up and live again in the perfected world that will come when the messiah finally shows up.

So the very bad people simply die and remain dead forever, physically and spiritually?

 

[mather]

In practice, yes, I think there's more fear of social disapproval than of God, certainly among the Orthodox. But yes, God doesn't have to do much - Judaism isn't really a religion of faith so much as one of practice.

For all its faults, I do like Judaism's approach (or lack of approach) to an Afterlife.... will always remember a quote from a Rabbi, but don't remember who, that 'Judaism is about life, not death'.

I suppose that is why so many Jews who are atheists still practice elements of Judaism and still refer to themselves as Jewish. Christians who become atheists don't.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I think Judaism is very much more about this life than the next, there's very little focus on the afterlife as a means of punishment & reward. But if you're very bad you won't get to rise up and live again in the perfected world that will come when the messiah finally shows up.

Sounds like a good deal innit! if god likes me I get to rise up and live like an aristo. if i don't, well no biggy.

In islam I could be treated to gardens with flowing rivers and (non)intoxicating wine, but I have to first observe my prayers.

I'm not sure whether being forceably dragged to the mosque every friday to hear some imam chat some bourgeois shit counts.

Oh wait I'm a munafik, I have the deepest level of hell reserved for me, for me there is no reprieve.

Allah was a tribal experiment gone awry.

 

[Plumdaff]

Grew up in a religious Roman Catholic family, and believed until I was 11 or 12. I remember being more scared of purgatory than hell. As an observant kid I assumed that I wouldn't reach hell but I was very worried about the possibility of not passing immediate muster for heaven either. The arrogance of youth!

I do remember being even more scared of nuclear war and having sleepless nights worrying about the three minute warning.

 

[Cloo]

I suppose that is why so many Jews who are atheists still practice elements of Judaism and still refer to themselves as Jewish. Christians who become atheists don't.

Exactly! Very few non-Jews get this. I'd say not many of our (large) congregation believe in God, it's just not a necessary ingredient for calling yourself a Jew. Albeit Orthodox Jews wouldn't feel the same way.

 

[Gromit]

I suppose that is why so many Jews who are atheists still practice elements of Judaism and still refer to themselves as Jewish. Christians who become atheists don't.

It's like celebrating Christmas basically. It's a nice fun bit of Christian society that you aren't excluded from despite having not done all the tedious regular worship obligation stuff etc.

 

[bimble]

i do wish Gromit would stop pontificating on the whole thing of what a Jew is. Yesterday he was saying it's a religion now it's sort of the opposite?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I've always been logical. Even as a kid.

I like the fact we have ex Muslims, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all rubbing along nicely on this thread, stating their disagreements with their former faith in a mildly-reminiscent and understanding manner.

Interesting how it's the militant atheist types that are always the arseholes.

 

[Sphinxminx]

Grew up in a religious Roman Catholic family, and believed until I was 11 or 12. I remember being more scared of purgatory than hell. As an observant kid I assumed that I wouldn't reach hell but I was very worried about the possibility of not passing immediate muster for heaven either. The arrogance of youth!

I do remember being even more scared of nuclear war and having sleepless nights worrying about the three minute warning.

I always quite liked the idea of purgatory as it meant a sort of spiritual get out of ( or at least avoid) jail free card. Then someone told me you could be there for thousands of years!! Concept of time beyond the veil

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Which is why I don't get why Satan (in Christianity) supposedly tortures people in Hell; surely if God has rejected them, then the Hell-bound would make the perfect allies in Satan's War Against Heaven, and thus torturing them would be counter-productive.

You're trying to apply logic to illogical fantasies.

It's like saying it's illogical that Batman and Superman would team up to fight crime.

The answer in both cases is: it's made-up. It's not real.

 

[8ball]

I'm not sure whether the world became more or less weird when I started developing a scientific understanding of things...

 

[8ball]

You're trying to apply logic to illogical fantasies.

It's like saying it's illogical that Batman and Superman would team up to fight crime.

The answer in both cases is: it's made-up. It's not real.

No, stories can be well-constructed or poorly constructed.

 

[8ball]

It's like celebrating Christmas basically. It's a nice fun bit of Christian society that you aren't excluded from despite having not done all the tedious regular worship obligation stuff etc.

<coughs>

 

[Andrew Hertford]

My mum used to take us to church every week until her own mother died and at that point her belief seemed to drain away. My father never went to church, he was an atheist, but oddly he took us for a while after my mum stopped. I was never particularly scared of Hell, from a young age I thought it was only where very bad people ended up.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

No, stories can be well-constructed or poorly constructed.

I've recently been reading about the Gnostic Christians who broke from the mainstream church back in the second and third centuries.

They apparently adapted the Genesis story so that the god of the old testament was actually a malevolent, lesser god who tricked humans into thinking he was the real one.

They have some awesome stories filling in various gaps in the Bible. It's like a bunch of crazy sci-fi fanatics invented a time machine and went back in time to start a religious sect.

L. Ron Hubbard's attempt reads like a car manual compared to what the Gnostics wrote.

 

[8ball]

I've recently been reading about the Gnostic Christians who broke from the mainstream church back in the second and third centuries.

They apparently adapted the Genesis story so that the god of the old testament was actually a malevolent, lesser god who tricked humans into thinking he was the real one.

They have some awesome stories filling in various gaps in the Bible. It's like a bunch of crazy sci-fi fanatics invented a time machine and went back in time to start a religious sect.

L. Ron Hubbard's attempt reads like a car manual compared to what the Gnostics wrote.

Did they include Lilith (Adam's first wife) in their Genesis story?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

No, stories can be well-constructed or poorly constructed.

The story of Christ rising from the grave and floating up to Heaven is arguably well-constructed, for instance - but it defies logic.

The story of Superman - a baby from Krypton who flies through space radiation, then arrives on Earth with super powers, also is a well-constructed story.

But it too, defies logic.

 

[8ball]

The story of Christ rising from the grave and floating up to Heaven is arguably well-constructed, for instance - but it defies logic.

The story of Superman - a baby from Krypton who flies through space radiation, then arrives on Earth with super powers, also is a well-constructed story.

But it too, defies logic.

Neither of which relate in any way to the devil torturing people in hell when that's what you'd think God might want him to do.
And neither of them defy logic particularly (especially not the logic of narrative), they just defy our scientific understanding of the world.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

If you want to imbue the Devil story with logic, well:

The Devil was at first an angel who turned away from the face of God.

Arguably, doing something like that could be interpreted as a sign of emotional or personality issues.

So when he ends up ruling in Hell, maybe he tortures guilty souls as a way to assuage his own guilt, and to try and win Daddy's favor.

 

[8ball]

If you want to imbue the Devil story with logic, well:

The Devil was at first an angel who turned away from the face of God.

Arguably, doing something like that could be interpreted as a sign of emotional or personality issues.

So when he ends up ruling in Hell, maybe he tortures guilty souls as a way to assuage his own guilt, and to try and win Daddy's favor.

That's quite nice, because it means God is at least as evil as the Devil.
Can't see the church going for it in a big way.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

... or 'her'.

No point in making sexist gender assignations when dealing with fantastical bible creatures.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

That's quite nice, because it means God is at least as evil as the Devil.
Can't see the church going for it in a big way.

Doesn't mean God is evil.

If his emotionally challenged child acts out as a way of getting attention, it's not God who's committing the sin.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

.

 

[8ball]

Has there been much argument for gender equality when it comes to the identity of Beelzebub?

 

[Gromit]

I like the fact we have ex Muslims, Jews, Catholics, and Protestants all rubbing along nicely on this thread, stating their disagreements with their former faith in a mildly-reminiscent and understanding manner.

Interesting how it's the militant atheist types that are always the arseholes.

I'm not an atheist. I believe in unknowable God and / or Gods.

I don't believe in religion. Which is humans controlling and manipulating other humans for money, influence and power using their made up bullshit.

 

[8ball]

Doesn't mean God is evil.

If his emotionally challenged child acts out as a way of getting attention, it's not God who's committing the sin.

I think if a child is attempting to elicit positive attention by torturing lesser beings, that says something about the parenting situation which social services would not see as entirely favourable.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Did they include Lilith (Adam's first wife) in their Genesis story?

Not heard of Lilith before, but it wouldn't surprise me if she got a role to play in Gnostic mythology.

A lot of their literature was destroyed by the orthodox church who considered them heretical, so until recently all we knew about them came from mainstream Christians writing critiques.

Then in 1945 a stash of Gnostic manuscripts was discovered in a cave in Egypt, hidden there presumably by persecuted monks who didn't fancy their books being confiscated or burnt. You can read a bunch of them here.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

I'm not an atheist. I believe in unknowable God and / or Gods.

I don't believe in religion. Which is humans controlling and manipulating other humans for money, influence and power using their made up bullshit.

Fair enough. I didn't mean to be snippy. Apologies.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I think if a child is attempting to elicit positive attention by torturing lesser beings, that says something about the parenting situation which social services would not see as entirely favourable.

You can only stretch the analogy so far. We're talking about Jehovah and Satan.

The details of their interpersonal relationship will tend to differ from those of most mortal people.

In other words, there's no real terrestrial equivalent to a father who runs Paradise, while the out-of-favor child runs an Inferno in which countless souls are burning forever in a lake of fire.

 

[NoXion]

You're trying to apply logic to illogical fantasies.

It's like saying it's illogical that Batman and Superman would team up to fight crime.

The answer in both cases is: it's made-up. It's not real.

Erm, I'm pretty sure that Batman and Superman *have* teamed up to fight crime. Justice League anyone?