to those raised in religious household, did you actually find hell scary?

[Cloo]

I grew up in a house that observed Judaism, as in keeping kosher, separate milk/meat cutlery, going to synagogue quite often and on major festivals, keeping Passover. We were culturally religious but not believers in God. Even in more orthodox Judaism there isn't a concept of Hell, though there is fear of the disapproval of God I suppose.

 

[DotCommunist]

I grew up in a house that observed Judaism, as in keeping kosher, separate milk/meat cutlery, going to synagogue quite often and on major festivals, keeping Passover. We were culturally religious but not believers in God. Even in more orthodox Judaism there isn't a concept of Hell, though there is fear of the disapproval of God I suppose.

I'm told there is no Satan in judaism either, just a sort of Adversary figure who isn't like the christian devil at all, not really even the same concept.

I prefer to think of hell as a big red theme park with fiery pits and old nick himself in full horns and hooves mode, playing death metal

 

[Cloo]

I think fear of social censure is more of a think in Judaism than fear of anything else!

 

[Gromit]

I've always been logical. Even as a kid.

Do what we say and you'll get to go to this wonderful place when you die.
Don't and we'll torture you forever.

Sounds like a bully's bullshit. I'm not swallowing it.

 

[gentlegreen]

The older I get, the more angry I am at the minimal amount of normalisation of god belief that I ended up with - and though I was always more drawn to Buddhism, I wasted actual time considering religions with gods ...

As for the Abrahamic god - what an arsehole - and an idiot to boot.
Hitchens puts it very succinctly :-

 

[NoXion]

I'm told there is no Satan in judaism either, just a sort of Adversary figure who isn't like the christian devil at all, not really even the same concept.

I prefer to think of hell as a big red theme park with fiery pits and old nick himself in full horns and hooves mode, playing death metal

My understanding is that Satan in Judaism plays the role of God's prosecuting attorney, rather than the anti-God that he seems to often be in most Christian interpretations. Which is why I don't get why Satan (in Christianity) supposedly tortures people in Hell; surely if God has rejected them, then the Hell-bound would make the perfect allies in Satan's War Against Heaven, and thus torturing them would be counter-productive.

 

[Gromit]

My understanding is that Satan in Judaism plays the role of God's prosecuting attorney, rather than the anti-God that he seems to often be in most Christian interpretations. Which is why I don't get why Satan (in Christianity) supposedly tortures people in Hell; surely if God has rejected them, then the Hell-bound would make the perfect allies in Satan's War Against Heaven, and thus torturing them would be counter-productive.

I've create you and I have given you free will, you can do anything you want, but if you do anything you want instead of what I and my self appointed human representatives tell you to do... I'll torture you for eternity.
God is a bit of a cunt really, ain't he?

 

[NoXion]

I've create you and I have given you free will, you can do anything you want, but if you do anything you want instead of what I and my self appointed human representatives tell you to do... I'll torture you for eternity.
God is a bit of a cunt really, ain't he?

Most fundies that I've read who address the topic basically boil it down to this; it's God's universe, therefore it's God's rules, he makes them and us mortals are subject to them. Remember that such ideas originated from times when popular democracy, mass education and the idea that people shouldn't be property were little more than the dreams of intellectual deviants and madmen.

 

[cybershot]

Well I could amend it to 'do' but knowing urban i doubt there are many sola scriptura types on here, or even still believing...

What about you?

Nah, atheist here

 

[mojo pixy]

God is a bit of a cunt really, ain't he?

In a place where blasphemy is taken seriously (they exist) the prospect of saying or writing something like this is basically either terrifying or just unthinkable.

Among drunken old cynics down the pub, of course not.
Among kids, it'd earn some serious misery time in this world, let alone the next.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

The older I get, the more angry I am at the minimal amount of normalisation of god belief that I ended up with - and though I was always more drawn to Buddhism, I wasted actual time considering religions with gods ...

As for the Abrahamic god - what an arsehole - and an idiot to boot.
Hitchens puts it very succinctly :-

The thing that irks me slightly about the Hitchens brigade is that they're basically starting from the same position as Christian fundamentalists. They criticise Christianity and Judaism based on a very literalistic understanding of the bible, at which point it becomes like shooting fish in a barrel because all they're aiming at are dumb American Baptists.

The thing about Christian fundamentalism is that it only emerged in the late 19th century, whereas if you go back to the early centuries of the religion it was very common to interpret the bible allegorically. The vast majority of Christians do not stick to the belief that the earth is 6000 years old. They never have.

 

[NoXion]

The thing that irks me slightly about the Hitchens brigade is that they're basically starting from the same position as Christian fundamentalists. They criticise Christianity and Judaism based on a very literalistic understanding of the bible, at which point it becomes like shooting fish in a barrel because all they're aiming at are dumb American Baptists.

The thing about Christian fundamentalism is that it only emerged in the late 19th century, whereas if you go back to the early centuries of the religion it was very common to interpret the bible allegorically. The vast majority of Christians do not stick to the belief that the earth is 6000 years old. They never have.

So was Bishop Ussher ahead of his time or just a giant fucking heretic?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

So was Bishop Ussher ahead of his time or just a giant fucking heretic?

The fact it took 1600 years for someone to get round to calculating the biblical age of the universe should tell you all you need to know.

 

[NoXion]

The fact it took 1600 years for someone to get round to calculating the biblical age of the universe should tell you all you need to know.

It didn't take anywhere near that long. Clement of Alexandria in his work Stromata gave a date for the creation of the world of 5592 BC. He died around 215 AD. This notion that Christians didn't take a religious basis for the formation of the world until the 19th century is simply wrong.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

It didn't take anywhere near that long. Clement of Alexandria in his work Stromata gave a date for the creation of the world of 5592 BC. He died around 215 AD. This notion that Christians didn't take a religious basis for the formation of the world until the 19th century is simply wrong.

And Origen took the allegorical approach to interpreting scripture at around the same time. I was being a bit strong in my initial statement, but the general point is that biblical literalism has not always been the main approach, and the current brand of it kicked off about 100 years ago.

 

[NoXion]

And Origen took the allegorical approach to interpreting scripture at around the same time. I was being a bit strong in my initial statement, but the general point is that biblical literalism has not always been the main approach, and the current brand of it kicked off about 100 years ago.

Nevertheless, literalism has been a thing in Christianity since the earliest days, and is therefore not some modern aberration. It doesn't jive with reality but that doesn't mean it's any less legitimate on a purely theological level, insofar as such things can be said to be legitimate. Not to mention that since there are and always have been people who sincerely believe in literal interpretations of the Bible, you can't complain that folk like Hitchens are attacking some kind of strawman.

 

[mojo pixy]

St Augustine of Hippo, he for one was great for a bit of biblical literalism.

 

[ferrelhadley]

I never feared hell. Just assumed that a God of love and compassion would always want the best for Her\His people until I realised it all made no sense in a scientific sense thus was irrelevant rather than right or wrong.

 

[clicker]

I don't think I ever believed in heaven or hell but I loved imagining them in my head. Hell had a proper red caped, cackling Lucifer with a pitchfork and Heaven was all bouncing off clouds and low flying cherubs. But Purgatory scared the bejaysus out of me because I couldn't imagine it , other than an eternal hanging around in nothingness.

 

[Casually Red]

My understanding is that Satan in Judaism plays the role of God's prosecuting attorney, rather than the anti-God that he seems to often be in most Christian interpretations. Which is why I don't get why Satan (in Christianity) supposedly tortures people in Hell; surely if God has rejected them, then the Hell-bound would make the perfect allies in Satan's War Against Heaven, and thus torturing them would be counter-productive.

Except the idea of Satan doing the torturing emanates from depictions of Dantes inferno , that the public mind latched onto, and not any theological belief . The greatest torment of hell is the eternal separation from God . That you freely chose .

However spending eternity with an entity composed of pure unadulterated hatred , as opposed to a state of grace, doesn't sound like much fun to me . Eternitys a long time .

 

[Casually Red]

I've create you and I have given you free will, you can do anything you want, but if you do anything you want instead of what I and my self appointed human representatives tell you to do... I'll torture you for eternity.
God is a bit of a cunt really, ain't he?

Um no, you choose this path yourself . Thats free will . In catholic theology God doesn't want anyone to go to hell and god certainly doesn't do any torturing in hell . You choose to be separated from God for all eternity . It's your choice .

You can also do lots of bad stuff during your life . God loves sinners . Even those who chose hell rather than him .

 

[NoXion]

Except the idea of Satan doing the torturing emanates from depictions of Dantes inferno , that the public mind latched onto, and not any theological belief . The greatest torment of hell is the eternal separation from God . That you freely chose .

However spending eternity with an entity composed of pure unadulterated hatred , as opposed to a state of grace, doesn't sound like much fun to me . Eternitys a long time .

The description of Satan as a being of pure hatred comes from his sworn enemies, though. Not what I would call a reliable source.

 

[Casually Red]

And from people who've had the misfortune to encounter that entity . Some of whom I'd regard as reliable .

 

[NoXion]

If those people were Christians, then that would go some way to explain why they got a frosty reception from the Bringer of Light.

 

[mather]

As a kid, I found hell scary on some levels but because it was a rather abstract concept it wasn't scary in the sense that it raised the hairs on my back. According to doctrine, Satan ultimately is defeated, he is set up to lose, I suppose that takes the wind out of sails in him being completely scary and is if anything a comforting thought.

More than the heaven and hell stuff, the first aspect of Christian doctrine I found wholly unacceptable was the compulsion to forgive transgressors, to turn the other cheek. I remember a nun telling me that if someone were to kill my entire family in front of my very eyes I would not only have to forgive that person but to then love them as I would my own brother. I thought that was rubbish then and still do, no person should ever have to behave in the manner of a sheep, gullible and lacking all sense of self respect. That and the fact that no matter how many times I prayed I never felt God's presence, no reply not even a hint that He was there, caused me to lose my faith by my mid teens.

 

[mather]

Yep, no such thing as hell at all in the judaism i grew up with, and no heaven either, its a very different setup.

Then what is the point in obeying God's laws? How does God punish those who break those laws?

 

[mather]

playing death metal

That does sound like hell.

 

[mather]

I think fear of social censure is more of a think in Judaism than fear of anything else!

From your peers among your faith/community? Judaism seems to be a self regulating belief system with God not having to do much.

 

[bimble]

Then what is the point in obeying God's laws? How does God punish those who break those laws?

I think Judaism is very much more about this life than the next, there's very little focus on the afterlife as a means of punishment & reward. But if you're very bad you won't get to rise up and live again in the perfected world that will come when the messiah finally shows up.

 

[Cloo]

In practice, yes, I think there's more fear of social disapproval than of God, certainly among the Orthodox. But yes, God doesn't have to do much - Judaism isn't really a religion of faith so much as one of practice.

For all its faults, I do like Judaism's approach (or lack of approach) to an Afterlife.... will always remember a quote from a Rabbi, but don't remember who, that 'Judaism is about life, not death'.