the role of language

[maomao]

The words are.

But johnny, you're bringing in examples of the whole. Truth is a whole. No sooner than you fixate on a part than you have departed from the truth.

This *truth is a construct of your own (purportedly non-linguistic) devising which given your own definition of it (such as that can be, given the inadequacy of language in explaing *truth) cannot possibly be equal to truth. Don't you think it therefore somewhat disingenuous of yourself to refer to *truth as truth?

As far as I can tell *truth is the product of your ego, good food and beer.

 

[fela fan]

I think I know what you're getting at, but the problem is the different choice of words.

I think what you're talking about is something closer to the tao, or the unity of things, and that doesn't have anything to do with language, aside from our attempts to describe it.

If you think you know mate, then i'd say you do know. And as you allude here, the very problem is that language, thus far, seems to me incapable of describing what it is i'm talking about.

Basically, out there is a whole. Humans are a part of the whole. Language, our main means of communication, is part of humans, and is therefore also a part of the whole.

Whatever happens happens, whatever is is. And that is the whole, and that is truth. But attempting to go any further with language is impossible coz every person will have a potentially different take on what the words that are being used actually mean. And that take will depend on all their previous experiences, largely shaped by their upbringing and society's expectations.

The going beyond language bit is the going beyond human bit. It is tapping into the thing that guides us. I reckon 'nature' is as good a word as it gets. 'Truth' (or even 'enlightenment') has just too many connotations, whereas nature is pretty denotational in its understood meaning.

I think another key issue is that we have to have fully open minds, hearts, souls to tap into this 'truth'. One of my main reasons for starting this thread: ie, language helps keep our channels closed to a degree. To find this 'truth', we must drop language.

 

[fela fan]

This *truth is a construct of your own (purportedly non-linguistic) devising which given your own definition of it (such as that can be, given the inadequacy of language in explaing *truth) cannot possibly be equal to truth. Don't you think it therefore somewhat disingenuous of yourself to refer to *truth as truth?

As far as I can tell *truth is the product of your ego, good food and beer.

Maomao, by trying to put into words what cannot be put into words, i'm potentially (depending on the reader) and constantly opening myself up to hypocrisy and disingenuity, for sure.

Such is the weakness of language in going beyond the human-constructed world.

As for your last bit, then allow me to extend this kind of truth: good food, beer, mates, family, nature, sport, and music. Now that is a kind of truth that can be put into words, and it's a great kind of truth. And with a few weeks off just on the horizon i intend to fully imbibe on such pleasures of the human world. A feast for the senses if you like. Only possible when work has been fucked off from consciousness and memory...

Not sure about the ego bit mind. Being in control of it, rather than it in control of me is the best scenario.

 

[Diem K]

But again, both these examples are about actions. Truth is nothing to do with an action, it is a concept/notion. Or even more accurately, it just is.

We do not agree and I think that can be expalined with reference to the original question.

You are saying (I think) Truth, just is, and is not connected with whats going on around us (in particular language), if we are lucky we can start to "feel" Truth but we can never explain what that means because language is inadequate etc etc bla bla.

I am also saying Truth, just is, but I am saying it is connected with everything that is going on around us. Everything in the universe is a kind of poor degraded reflection/imatation/copy/replica/simile of a part of what is truth.

So I think language (like everything else) has a relationship with Truth and therefore disagree with you.

my reasoning is along these lines:

If we assume Truth is totally outside and not connected to any experiences in the Universe then how could you ever begin to have any knowledge of truth, even one you cannot explain with words? You have never learned how to know.

The "feelings" you have when you talk about your notion of truth must be in some way related to emotions you have experienced from being part of the universe. I am not saying these are emotions/sensations/actions or whatever are the same as anything experienced from the Universe - they are only "poor cousins" or something of a "stepped down" quality. However, you have learned from your interaction with the universe how to understand and know things and this in turn has taught you how to know something more.

Therefore without there being a connection of some kind you could never have learned how to KNOW your unexplainables.

 

[Diem K]

If you break down what Language actually is (assuming spoken language):

It is structure. Vibrations at frequencies within an audible range. Organised/structured into a code which is used for communication.

Structure is part of Truth. (I think so anyway)

The opposite of Structure is disorder/chaos which is also part of Truth.

Ying and Yang innit?

 

[fela fan]

A lot of what you wrote in your above post mate i can accept, no problem.

Without agreeing or disagreeing, but trying to refine my position here, yes, you need language to get beyond language. So language has a connection there. I'm not sure i ever argued against that. To me language, as humans, is part of the truth. The truth is the whole, and everything therefore is a part that adds up to the whole.

But langauge, being just a part, can never hope to describe the truth, the whole.

The very fact it cannot cover the truth, and the fact that many believe truth can reside in language, leads to the manipulations i first talked about on this thread.

 

[kyser_soze]

You really should read H2G2 you know fela - you'd find a lot of your ideas in it.

 

[fela fan]

Ying and Yang innit?

Yes. And everything else too.

This truth, although not available through language, is available and obtainable through a kind of language: the language of the heart and soul. And thus far, we have only five senses, and none of them cover the heart or soul. Perhaps when we recognise this extra sense or two might we be able to make truth available through language using words...

 

[fela fan]

You really should read H2G2 you know fela - you'd find a lot of your ideas in it.

As i said no ta to you last night mate, i did have a thought about buying it. I've never yet been failed at my favourite second hand bookshop, and it's not exactly a rare title. I have some holidays and mountain time coming up, mebbe i just will tootle along and get a copy...

 

[deeplight]

No no, wait a minute. Truth is not about knowledge. You can't know truth. That is why language is unable to deal with truth. Knowing things belongs to the realm of language.

Truth is beyond language. You can't smell it, see it, hear it, taste it, feel it. And you can't know it.

Whatever our sense organs are stimulated by, it's not truth.

Truth itself may not be about knowledge. Knowing truth though is another thing entirely though.

The feeling of knowing in my experience can go beyond language. We can know that we are a part of everything in fleeting moments when we forget that there is someone, (our concept of self,) to be separate from everything else.

These moments are a reminder of the whole we have seperated ourselves from IMVHO.

I think you are talking about empirical knowledge here and I accept that on that level knowing does belong with language.

Surely though if truth is felt then by the very assertion of that statement it is known on a level of feeling.

 

[fela fan]

I think you are talking about empirical knowledge here and I accept that on that level knowing does belong with language.

Surely though if truth is felt then by the very assertion of that statement it is known on a level of feeling.

I'm not even sure i know what the fuck i'm talking about. One minute i'm clear as hell about it all, then as soon as i try and put it into language the thought comes to me that i know absolutely fuck all. One minute i'm right, the next minute i'm wrong about the very same thing.

But that, i believe, is part of it all!

In one sense, yes i agree, we can know about truth. If we are aware of what it is, then we can know about it, regardless of whether we can convert that knowledge into language.

You know, i was reading pinter's speech at the nobel prize ceremony, and he touched on a few things i've been trying to articulate on this thread. When i'm back home i'll try and focus in on them.

 

[deeplight]

I'm not even sure i know what the fuck i'm talking about. One minute i'm clear as hell about it all, then as soon as i try and put it into language the thought comes to me that i know absolutely fuck all. One minute i'm right, the next minute i'm wrong about the very same thing.

But that, i believe, is part of it all!

In one sense, yes i agree, we can know about truth. If we are aware of what it is, then we can know about it, regardless of whether we can convert that knowledge into language.

You know, i was reading pinter's speech at the nobel prize ceremony, and he touched on a few things i've been trying to articulate on this thread. When i'm back home i'll try and focus in on them.

Yes I know that feeling. Its a great part of wisdom not to get entrenched in our ideas and opinions and to be open to new information. Theres so much to learn about so many things here on mystery school planet earth. I feel like wtf can I know really but thats cool because it inspires curiosity.

For what its worth I feel an affinity with the way you seem to look at things fela. In the end Im certain about very little when I used to be certain so much. Never mind all any of us are doing here is thinking out loud.

I'd be curious to read that pinter speach if you have a linky fing.

P.S. Did you read that link about Tony parsons views explaining oneness?

 

[Barking_Mad]

Pinter's speech is here - http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1661516,00.html

 

[deeplight]

Pinter's speech is here - http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1661516,00.html

Thank you.

 

[fela fan]

For what its worth I feel an affinity with the way you seem to look at things fela. In the end Im certain about very little when I used to be certain so much. Never mind all any of us are doing here is thinking out loud.

That's good! There's a lot more living round my way too deep, you'd like it here.

And you know, it's easy to say that i know everything and i know nothing at the same time.

And as soon as i've worked something out, i realise i haven't at all.

And as soon as i reckon i'm right about something, i realise i'm wrong.

It's akin to feeling that my body is going to implode rather than explode. That my body has become an out of control vortex that will end up becoming less than a single atom.

I know nothing, and i'm a nobody. And when that is the case, life is just fucking dandy! Nothing matters, and i don't care about anything. Equals no problems. No expectations means no disappointments. No success means no failure.

Of course i'd not want that 100% of the time, but it's a damn good guide to live by.

Language really is only a vehicle, it just is not the main thing. I think when i can say opposites are true in one sentence, it's because one belongs to language and the other is undefinable because it is beyond language. Therefore what appears contradictory (ie i know everything and i know nothing), is only so if we look at it from a language vantage point.

 

[fela fan]

From pinter's speech:

"It's a scintillating stratagem. Language is actually employed to keep thought at bay. The words 'the American people' provide a truly voluptuous cushion of reassurance. You don't need to think. Just lie back on the cushion. The cushion may be suffocating your intelligence and your critical faculties but it's very comfortable."

That is basically the premise of my thread when i started it. Language may well have freed us from the animal world, but it also acts as a prison. But seemingly for many that prison is secure and comfortable, so they throw away their own key.

Look! Why is pinter's speech fast becoming old news????

Look! Why have the only superpower on earth voted a man in twice who celebrates being thick, who has only disdain for intelligence and the use of critical faculties???

Look! We have blair, a war criminal who gets voted back in for his dastardly deeds. Why do we not put him in prison with all the other murderers?

Language it is, language. Fucking amazing really.

 

[deeplight]

That's good! There's a lot more living round my way too deep, you'd like it here.

And you know, it's easy to say that i know everything and i know nothing at the same time.

And as soon as i've worked something out, i realise i haven't at all.

And as soon as i reckon i'm right about something, i realise i'm wrong.

It's akin to feeling that my body is going to implode rather than explode. That my body has become an out of control vortex that will end up becoming less than a single atom.

I know nothing, and i'm a nobody. And when that is the case, life is just fucking dandy! Nothing matters, and i don't care about anything. Equals no problems. No expectations means no disappointments. No success means no failure.

Of course i'd not want that 100% of the time, but it's a damn good guide to live by.

Language really is only a vehicle, it just is not the main thing. I think when i can say opposites are true in one sentence, it's because one belongs to language and the other is undefinable because it is beyond language. Therefore what appears contradictory (ie i know everything and i know nothing), is only so if we look at it from a language vantage point.

100% agree

I recon I'd love Thailand. But then again I love SE Kent too. Thailand would help me to feel less seperate from everything else though and oneness is the feeling we all crave though right now I feel a million miles away from it tbh. Im getting back there though.

In the end it isn’t something to do with understanding, it is more to do with intuition. It is like a leap, a sudden seeing of something that was already known. ‘Oh Yes, I already know this'. ... You see, this is about a love affair. It’s to do with a total intimacy just with the wonder of this. It’s like a child on the beach building sandcastles, and there’s nothing else that exists but the sand and the sea and the saltiness; that’s all there is - there isn’t anything else. It’s the wonder of that simplicity, the wonder of this, which blows everything about concepts out of the window. It’s the timeless wonder of what we are.
divline

People can have an idea that if they listen to enlightened words, if they succeed in understanding the nature of what they are, they can then fall into that. But it doesn’t work like that, because the nature of what we are is totally beyond understanding. In fact, it is understanding that falls away before clear seeing happens. Clear seeing has nothing to do with understanding.

The only thing that can happen, in terms of understanding, is the dropping of the ideas you have about enlightenment, about what you think you are. The ideas can drop away and you can be left with no idea, with nothing. And when you’re left with nothing, what emerges is this. What emerges is the invitation. All of the sensory messages that you’re getting touching, smelling, seeing - are all the lover inviting you to see that there is only oneness.
divline

Tony parsons.

That in my view is why words fail. Some things I just read occasionally and they strike a chord so deep I feel, "that is the truth." That is how I feel about the above text. Anyone asking me right now why words fail to explain the deepest feeling of all has just had my answer via that text.

It is also another way of saying what you were explaining about becoming less that a single atom fela which I really like btw.

 

[Mungy]

i've pondered on this thread for a few days. i'll try to get my thoughts down in writing, forgive me if it gets muddled.

when i think it is with language i think. all that limits me to what can be said about my experience. i have found, especially with urban, that unless language is correct, unless something tangible is presented, it is often dismissed.

i can see how language could evolve. currently, i may have an idea what is going on in another perosns head, but in truth, i can't know. at this level of consciousness our thoughts and feelings are seperate for each of us. everything about us is seperated, we may share common ground in varying degrees, but ultimately we are each alone within our sphere of existance.

this brings me to the idea of god, higher power, whatever you call it. life is fascinating. science tells us that we are a bag of water with a few odds and ends of various elements that have evolved from a happy accident. that our thoughts and feelings are just chemicals whizzing around our brain. that may well be right, it sounds plausible. but i suspect not the whole picture. there is more than i can experiece with my five senses in the universe.

for instance, i can't see oxygen. i imagine that science and technology could provide me with a device that would allow me to see oxygen or a technique of mixing chemicals so that the presence of oxygen becomes evident. which leads me to a what if. what if there was a device, technique, chemical that would allow us to experience, to see, taste, feel, hear, touch god or whatever you want to call it. just because it doesn't exist now, it doesn't mean that in the future we won't be able to.

only about two hundredish years ago the fastest form of travel we had was a horse. it took the ingenuity of man to use steam to travel faster and from there to the car, the plane, the rocket. who knows what will be next.

in this creative nature i get a brief experience of something more that a bag of water. our ability to invent, to create is amazing. not something that can be measured, though no doubt we are working on it.

i can envisage us evolving to a point where we can experience what eachother think and feel directly without the need for language tied down with having to explain what we mean; we will just know.

i'm sure i've missed something, but i'm too knackered now to keep hold of my train of thought. apologies if it doesn't make sense.

 

[deeplight]

If language evolves to become something beyond itself, could it still be called language or indeed anything?

That said I like your post Mungy.

 

[Mungy]

If language evolves to become something beyond itself, could it still be called language or indeed anything?

That said I like your post Mungy.

it may well still be language. language is constantly evolving. there are always new words. even the meaning of words change over the years.

i was talking to my wife about a book i had just bought. to me it sounded like i was just doing a monologue, no interaction from her (other that the obligatory "yes" and "no" at appropriate pauses) maybe she was listening, but i got the impresion that she wasn't the least bit interested. in hindsight i should have asked her if she was interested.

it's difficult to clearly see my thoughts when it happened. perhaps at some level we are all connected. with my mouth i am spouting stuff that is in my conscious mind, all the while my unconscious mind is in constant dialogue with my wife's unconscious mind and that is how it filtered into my conscious mind that she wasn't interested. or perhaps just cues that my conscious mind reacts to automatically.

perhaps there is only one unconscious mind. imagine, if you will, one of them plastic footballs with the little bumps on the surface. the little bumps are the conscious minds of everyone and perahps everything that has a mind. the rest of the ball is the unconscious mind. we are all really just the ball, but because our conscious mind is raised slightly above the surface, it perceives us as seperate entities.

i wonder if the bumps on the ball are slowly receding into the surface of the ball or whether they are growing outwards.

 

[Diem K]

i wonder if the bumps on the ball are slowly receding into the surface of the ball or whether they are growing outwards.

I think some are growing and others are shrinking. The question is: what is the net effect? a gain, a loss or equilibrium???