the purpose of life

[Kizmet]

I would prefer the purpose of a life becomes 'creative' because you can create the life that you want to create and as you say there are no limits, you can become whatever you want to become.

The only thing then is the choices you have to make and for many they are expected to make career changing choices according to which subjects they elect or are advised to take at school age. It is imo impossible at school age to know what you want to be your life's purpose.

Creation and destruction are chaotic elements. They are a by-product of life. What we do not what we are for.

It's a slight difference. But nevertheless an important one.

We create.. because we have a need. Necessity is the mother of invention.

What prompts the need?

 

[invisibleplanet]

Ok! But i guess i mean, are they aware of their consciousness? No.

Yes. Have you ever worked with horses?

 

[Dillinger4]

Just out of one group of birds, I think Ravens are far far far smarter than similar birds, such as a blackbird.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Rats are conscious beings.

 

[Dillinger4]

I think there are varying degrees of self awareness for animals.

 

[Kizmet]

Rats are conscious beings.

Depends how you define conscious. Conscious of what?

 

[fela fan]

Yes. Have you ever worked with horses?

Two questions: domesticated horses, or wild horses?

And are horses, or any animals, aware of their consciousness? I feel possibly dogs are, but only i think because of their training and proximity with humans. But even then i don't think they are aware that they are alive, they just are alive and that's it.

 

[fela fan]

I think some are more aware than others.

For example, a dog can recognize things that belong to him (ie he knows his dog bed is his).

A mosquito might only have a few self-concepts.

I've seen dogs with real shyness. Or, should i say, embarrassment.

But the real question here is: are animals actually aware of their own consciousness?

See, for me, animals and human babies just do what they do. They just live their lives. They don't have preoccupations with what is right or not right, what they should or should not do or say. They just do it. Humans, with their awareness of their own lives are able to alter their behaviour and communication according to the situation.

It is because of this meta-awareness of life that humans search for the meaning to their lives, while animals just get on with it. Does an animal fear death like humans can do? I really don't think so. Does an animal decide that procreation is not really for them? Humans do, and i really don't think animals can do this. They just do what they were born to do.

 

[invisibleplanet]

A few ideas off the top of my head for throwing around . . .

Undomesticated
An animal does decide that procreation is not for them, in certain circumstances. Witness the polar bear who began to batter it's cub in the wild or the zoo. Witness the human that shook it's baby to death. Witness the apes who, when competing for food, increased aggression and abuse towards the younger apes in the troupe who weren't their offspring.

"Domesticated"
Witness the man/woman who makes a conscious decision not to procreate because of their lifestyle or who rules out/postpones procreation due to their function/job and/or who opts out by avoiding other peoples children and/or is hostile to their presence, sometimes based on their own upbringing.

At some point in prehistory, we became conscious of the process of procreation and as we became aware of the cause, we sought to gain control over it. Witness the patriarchal religious laws that arose to ensure procreation and prohibit non-procreation. Witness attempts to control, create and manipulate symbols and place their use and creation in the hands of an organised elite group of specialists (religion/"occult", stories/drama, marketing).

 

[kyser_soze]

Animal consciousness will necessarily be different from humans simply on the basis that they exist is a different sensorium to us. Dogs live in a monochrome visual world, but they, like many other animals, have an acute sense of smell that they are conscious of and that makes up their perception of reality. For humans our primary input is visual, with much of our smell perception edited for speed of conscious processing reasons...a bat sees it's entire world as in sonar (as do those blind humans who have developed their own variant on sonar...google 'human sonar' or similar)...fuck only knows how an octopus or squid interprets it's environment, but there's gotta be something clever going on with them squids - the light patterns they use to communicate with each other are dazzlingly complex, according to marine biologist, far more so than cetacean communications...

Even an ant or bee...both exist in a world dominated by pheremonal markers that tell them what to do, and flys have that mental compound vision and reflexes that far outperform any human...

 

[Spion]

It is because of this meta-awareness of life that humans search for the meaning to their lives, while animals just get on with it.

I think this approximates to what I believe too.

It's been quite interesting having a dog the past couple of years. You can only speak to a dog in one tense - there's no past or future tense, only the immediate present (tho of course there is learned behaviour that influences present actions).

Oh, there is so much hard-wiring in animals that humans don't have too. My hound reads and contributes to a 3D social map. He was never taught to - he just began to sniff urine and to cock his leg at a certain point. No one showed him how to do it

 

[kyser_soze]

It's been quite interesting having a dog the past couple of years. You can only speak to a dog in one tense - there's no past or future tense, only the immediate present (tho of course there is learned behaviour that influences present actions).

Dogs exist in a permanent ketamine state of mind

 

[Spion]

Dogs exist in a permanent ketamine state of mind

Nope. Far more sociable than that

 

[kyser_soze]

Well yeah, but the time thing is true...

 

[fela fan]

Undomesticated
An animal does decide that procreation is not for them, in certain circumstances. Witness the polar bear who began to batter it's cub in the wild or the zoo. Witness the human that shook it's baby to death. Witness the apes who, when competing for food, increased aggression and abuse towards the younger apes in the troupe who weren't their offspring.

"Domesticated"
Witness the man/woman who makes a conscious decision not to procreate because of their lifestyle or who rules out/postpones procreation due to their function/job and/or who opts out by avoiding other peoples children and/or is hostile to their presence, sometimes based on their own upbringing.

At some point in prehistory, we became conscious of the process of procreation and as we became aware of the cause, we sought to gain control over it. Witness the patriarchal religious laws that arose to ensure procreation and prohibit non-procreation. Witness attempts to control, create and manipulate symbols and place their use and creation in the hands of an organised elite group of specialists (religion/"occult", stories/drama, marketing).

Not really sure about the meaning behind what you say in this post IP, but:

that polar bear had already procreated.

nothing about those apes says they themselves don't want to procreate.

Male lions kill the cubs of other lions, so that they may then satisfy their urge to procreate themselves.

 

[fela fan]

I'd like to say again: animals of course are conscious. But humans alone have the awareness of their own consciousness. This is a big distinction.

Good point before about dogs only being in the present. But they do have memories for past events - how else would they find their bone?!

I would say largely because of this here and now way of living of animals that that is their purpose in life, just to keep on being in the now as long as they can. Ie, to just continue being alive until they are dead.

And i say that is the only possible purpose for us humans too, since we are animals too. But we lost this knowledge/innate understanding somewhere along the way due to our meta-awareness of life and too many philosophers muddying the waters.

 

[fela fan]

Dogs exist in a permanent ketamine state of mind

Does this mean that if a human goes on a huge ketamine binge they can become just like dogs?

It does draw up a few images...

 

[kyser_soze]

Does this mean that if a human goes on a huge ketamine binge they can become just like dogs?

It does draw up a few images...

There's no 'they can' about it...they do...in fact I'd say dogs might take insult at the comparison generally...

 

[Spion]

Good point before about dogs only being in the present. But they do have memories for past events - how else would they find their bone?!

Sure they have memory. They form habits pretty easily and have a very simple understanding of cause and effect.

My dog knows all the signs that mean I/we will soon go outside. One time when I was getting ready he ran under my legs as I sat there doing up my shoes. He now does it every time - he thinks it causes me to take him outside. It doesn't, of course, but it's a little like some of the superstitions us humans have, like footballers putting on one boot first or leaving a neck chain on because the one day they did that in the past it brought a desired outcome

 

[kyser_soze]

Awww...I want a dog to take out for walkies again...

 

[Poi E]

a bat sees it's entire world as in sonar ...

A lot of smaller bats have some vision and use this as an aid for navigation, especially for things beyond the range of their sonar. Pedant out.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Many animals have forms of consciousness such as self-awareness and problem solving. I think only humans have a sense of Dasein, being there in the moment and able to question what it means to be.

 

[gorski]

http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.com/audio/Khaled_Yaseen/Purpose_Life/Purpose_Life.html

very good talk on the purpose of life

Shaggin'!!!! Or creativity if you wanna posh answer...