The Pro-Putin Left

[frogwoman]

I'm not sure about the significance of this at all, but looking through lots of this pro-Putin stuff on 'the left' people posting it also seem to post a fair amount of trans (woman=adult human female genre) related stuff.

'Gender critical' stuff?

 

[chilango]

If you even use the term "false flag" you're a wrong 'un tbh.

 

[chilango]

If you even use the term "false flag" you're a wrong 'un tbh.

ditto

"MSM"

 

[frogwoman]

Well Putin is a well known JK Rowling fan after all

 

[LDC]

'Gender critical' stuff?

Yeah, that. I mean I have some sympathies with some of that tbh, but their stuff always seem to be the more antagonistic arsehole end of the spectrum. That stuff does get pushed by similar forces, so maybe it comes from that? Also something about what people get personally from being 'an outcast' or special, and looking for 'communities' defined by being different etc. Like with the Covid denier/anti-vaxxers as well I guess? For some of Galloway's crowd it's performative though in part, some imagined 'prole' position of 'common sense' to go with the hilarious flat caps and Brexit stuff.

 

[LDC]

Well Putin is a well known JK Rowling fan after all

Oh yeah forgotten that. Ties in with all that fragile masculine stuff about the west being soft and weak and feminized. Not all manly and rough and tough like those Workers PartyGB wannabe Peaky Blinders extras.

 

[chilango]

Amongst loud voices in education circles there's a perfect circle of a ven diagram covering those who think traditional discipline is pro-working class, who think anti-racism is racist and who bleat on about women with penises.

Some of them claim to be on the left.

 

[LDC]

Politics all went wrong when men left the factories and women the kitchens school of left wing politics. Reactionary hipster cunts.

 

[chilango]

Middle-class do gooders should visit the Red Wall some time. Amirite?

 

[frogwoman]

There's a pipeline from a certain type of anti idpol / lexiter type leftie to alt right and pro putin shit. Seen it a bit more on Facebook than here tbh

 

[chilango]

They're like the bastard children of Class War who didn't get the joke.

 

[JimW]

What are the known significant false flags since Gulf of Tonkin or whatever that was called?

 

[frogwoman]

They're like the bastard children of Class War who didn't get the joke.

To be honest every part of the left has a hand in this, not just tankies or whatever.

 

[chilango]

To be honest every part of the left has a hand in this, not just tankies or whatever.

Pretty much. Not everyone, but enough.

 

[chilango]

What are the known significant false flags since Gulf of Tonkin or whatever that was called?

9/11 innit.

 

[Dystopiary]

Can someone also please explain to me (or provide a link to an explanation for) why so many who call themselves leftists actively simp for Putin and the Russian Federation, when neither of them are even nominally communist?

This is quite a long piece on the origins of "tankie-ism" and where it's led to today, support for authoritarian regimes from so called leftists:

Internationalism, Anti-Imperialism, And the Origins of Campism

 

[hitmouse]

I don't have much time for Socialist Action (to whom I think Fiona Edwards belongs, although I could be wrong), but when did the main enemy of the radical left/ anarchism stop being at home?

Thought I'd try to give this a proper answer: yes, the main enemy is at home, as it's always been, but there's never really been agreement about what that actually means in practice. I could gesture at Lenin vs Luxemburg here, for instance, even though I think they both would've claimed to agree with that slogan. For me, it means that bearing in mind that our enemy is at home, but also the government of every other state in the world is also the enemy of our friends in those countries, which can be a difficult tension to navigate at times; for some clowns, Socialist Action included, it seems to mean "my enemy is at home, therefore any state that happens to be in opposition to my state is my friend". I don't think the main enemy being at home means that British lefties are/were required to do mental contortions to prove that the UK government was really behind Italy invading Ethiopia in 1935, Germany invading Poland in 1939, or the USSR invading Hungary in 1956, and the same applies here.
The class struggle against our own ruling class continues, of course, at P&O and Chep and JustEat and all the rest of it, but I dunno what "socialist" geopolitical witterings have to contribute to it.

FFS, when your first response to likely war crimes is to shout 'false flag' have a fucking look at yourself.

Honestly finding this whole topic pretty despairing, and very reminiscent of the positions around Syria.

Makes sense, since the military invading Ukraine is the same as carried out a lot of the atrocities in Syria. Or possibly Syria was just about the US attacking the legitimate government of the Syrian people, depending on who you ask.

Yeah, that. I mean I have some sympathies with some of that tbh, but their stuff always seem to be the more antagonistic arsehole end of the spectrum. That stuff does get pushed by similar forces, so maybe it comes from that? Also something about what people get personally from being 'an outcast' or special, and looking for 'communities' defined by being different etc. Like with the Covid denier/anti-vaxxers as well I guess? For some of Galloway's crowd it's performative though in part, some imagined 'prole' position of 'common sense' to go with the hilarious flat caps and Brexit stuff.

Yeah, without wanting to turn this into yet another trans thread I find myself thinking of the recent Nina Power trajectory. I would really, really have liked the pessimists to be wrong about that one.

What are the known significant false flags since Gulf of Tonkin or whatever that was called?

Italy stategy of tension stuff, like the Piazza Fontana bombing? And I suppose spycops stuff as well, like I think you could justifiably call Debenhams 1987 an (alleged) false flag? That's one of the frustrating things, of course states really do shady and dishonest shit, just like there really are nazis in Ukraine and that's an actual problem too, it's just these fucking dickheads make it impossible to have a sensible conversation about the subject.

 

[frogwoman]

I've seen a bit of pro Putin and anti trans stuff from Scottish nationalists as well.

 

[LDC]

What are the known significant false flags since Gulf of Tonkin or whatever that was called?

What's really annoying is there is so much stuff that isn't 'false flag' as such, but involves some malicious planning and often groups of people doing nasty slightly hidden/lied about shit for nefarious reasons. My eye just caught sight of a headline about the opioid 'crisis' in the US for example. I mean that stuff is outrageous and is investigated, documented, and proven. Why not go on about that ffs?

Italy stategy of tension stuff, like the Piazza Fontana bombing? And I suppose spycops stuff as well, like I think you could justifiably call Debenhams 1987 an (alleged) false flag? That's one of the frustrating things, of course states really do shady and dishonest shit, just like there really are nazis in Ukraine and that's an actual problem too, it's just these fucking dickheads make it impossible to have a sensible conversation about the subject.

Italy for sure, not so much the Debenhams and spy cops stuff I think. I mean maybe we'd need to agree on what a 'false flag' is compared to stuff that gets done in the course of a job, or agent provocateur stuff?

 

[Pickman's model]

What's really annoying is there is so much stuff that isn't 'false flag' as such, but involves some malicious planning and often groups of people doing nasty slightly hidden/lied about shit for nefarious reasons. My eye just caught sight of a headline about the opioid 'crisis' in the US for example. I mean that stuff is outrageous and is investigated, documented, and proven. Why not go on about that ffs?



Italy for sure, not so much the Debenhams and spy cops stuff I think. I mean maybe we'd need to agree on what a 'false flag' is compared to stuff that gets done in the course of a job, or agent provocateur stuff?

gleiwitz

 

[chilango]

Obviously I blame Corbyn.

Aside from the obvious nasty cranks he entertained, almost all the left went all in and has been fucked by the process leaving an even bigger vacuum than ever before.

At the same time cultural wedge issues are proving a very effective tool for a whole range of interests.

Combine the two, and well, here we are. Everyone from Labour leaders to tiny Anarchist Communist groups are getting battered by it.

 

[chilango]

...a further knock on is that good people are understandably staying well clear of the toxic mess that the Left has become (I'm doing the same), further leaving the field open for the cranks, the tanks and the planks to monopolise.

 

[hitmouse]

Italy for sure, not so much the Debenhams and spy cops stuff I think. I mean maybe we'd need to agree on what a 'false flag' is compared to stuff that gets done in the course of a job, or agent provocateur stuff?

You could well be right, I was thinking they all fall under "cases involving the state doing dishonest stuff and misrepresenting who's involved", but maybe it is useful to make firmer distinctions?

 

[frogwoman]

Obviously I blame Corbyn.

Aside from the obvious nasty cranks he entertained, almost all the left went all in and has been fucked by the process leaving an even bigger vacuum than ever before.

At the same time cultural wedge issues are proving a very effective tool for a whole range of interests.

Combine the two, and well, here we are. Everyone from Labour leaders to tiny Anarchist Communist groups are getting battered by it.

Maybe we don't just need to blame one man tho.

 

[frogwoman]

Like blaming it all on Corbyn ends up being like the Blairites who are like before this one guy come along the Labour Party was like some venerable institution free of any racism and he's shamed the party etc. This has been decades in the making.

That's not to exonerate corbyn at all BTW- I despise him

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

I've seen a bit of pro Putin and anti trans stuff from Scottish nationalists as well.

More than a bit

 

[Wilf]

Obviously I blame Corbyn.

Aside from the obvious nasty cranks he entertained, almost all the left went all in and has been fucked by the process leaving an even bigger vacuum than ever before.

At the same time cultural wedge issues are proving a very effective tool for a whole range of interests.

Combine the two, and well, here we are. Everyone from Labour leaders to tiny Anarchist Communist groups are getting battered by it.

A failure to organise in, even relate to, working class communities runs through all of this, but particularly the whole Corbyn thing. Very much a feature of the vacuum.

 

[LDC]

You could well be right, I was thinking they all fall under "cases involving the state doing dishonest stuff and misrepresenting who's involved", but maybe it is useful to make firmer distinctions?

Dunno, not sure I can be arsed expending too much brainpower thinking about it tbh! I did some quick investi-Google for definitions and that led me to this gem though. Maybe it explains the Sparts thread?

Marxist–Leninist Party of the Netherlands - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"The MLPN published a monthly periodical called De Kommunist (The Communist). It was entirely written by BVD operatives."

 

[Lurdan]

for some clowns, Socialist Action included, it seems to mean "my enemy is at home, therefore any state that happens to be in opposition to my state is my friend".

Socialist Action aren't a particularly good example of that. They are primarily supporters of "actually existing" (rofl) Chinese "socialism" and their opposition to "NATO aggression", and their attitudes to Russia and Ukraine, all stem from that.

 

[hitmouse]

Socialist Action aren't a particularly good example of that. They are primarily supporters of "actually existing" (rofl) Chinese "socialism" and their opposition to "NATO aggression", and their attitudes to Russia and Ukraine, all stem from that.

...From which it also follows that the many of the same people who spent the 2000s very stridently being The Best Fighters Against Islamophobia are now required to come over all War on Terror if the Muslims under discussion are in Xinjiang, of course.