The Pro-Putin Left

[NoXion]

Can someone also please explain to me (or provide a link to an explanation for) why so many who call themselves leftists actively simp for Putin and the Russian Federation, when neither of them are even nominally communist?

 

[RD2003]

Do you really think responding to what is obviously rhetoric with this kind of whataboutery achieves anything useful? No, shaving a symbol of an unprovoked military invasion (which we now know is accompanied by war crimes) into the side of a child's head isn't the absolute worst thing one can do, but it's still disgusting.

It shouldn't be allowed.

 

[NoXion]

It shouldn't be allowed.

What shouldn't?

 

[Rimbaud]

Can someone also please explain to me (or provide a link to an explanation for) why so many who call themselves leftists actively simp for Putin and the Russian Federation, when neither of them are even nominally communist?

I think it is in some ways the remnants of 2003 era rhetoric and popular ideas on the left at that time, e.g. anti-US led globalisation. There is a logic of anything against the US being inherently progressive.

I think things are somewhat different now though. China's economy was only about the size of Italy's back then for instance. Around that time Russia was still more or less reeling from a state of chaos in part due to IMF advised economic shock therapy. The US under Bush were indeed out of control.

I think some of these people are still stuck in that era psychologically, and in many cases are getting their "alternative" news directly from Russia propaganda.

 

[likesfish]

Just because your Anti West doesn't make you the good guys.

surely if my limited Brain can grasp the concept. I.E. Hamas are horrible people doesn't mean the IDF can use them for target practice because they are bored .
Russia and China do have an alternative to the West unfortunately it's even more exploitative. Capitalism with zero limits and a government that can't ever be held to account.
For all its faults the US and EU if the stars are right you can get some redress and stop some of their worse practices. In China and Russia the elite are never ever held to account.

 

[frogwoman]

Was talking about this with a mate yesterday. I'm not sure how much people realise courting the far left, far right and 'anti establishment' types in general has been so central to RT's business model over the years, they have poured loads into it and to some extent been successful. RT might now be blocked but, especially in Latin America and Africa, loads of people believe this shit. But also here.

 

[chilango]

Was talking about this with a mate yesterday. I'm not sure how much people realise courting the far left, far right and 'anti establishment' types in general has been so central to RT's business model over the years, they have poured loads into it and to some extent been successful. RT might now be blocked but, especially in Latin America and Africa, loads of people believe this shit. But also here.

Yeah.

In the absence of meaningful, on the ground, options its all too easy to slip into the seductive arms of conspiracism and the snake oil salesmen.

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah.

In the absence of meaningful, on the ground, options its all too easy to slip into the seductive arms of conspiracism and the snake oil salesmen.

It's not only conspiracy theorists though is it? It'd be easier if it was.

 

[chilango]

...also, as was so painful to witness with Corbyn, much of this "Left" is it's own social world with durable sub-cultural barriers and distinctions to enforce outsider vs. insider. So positions that might have made (some) sense decades ago are first entrenched and then ritualised into an unreflexive liturgy.

 

[chilango]

It's not only conspiracy theorists though is it? It'd be easier if it was.

It's not, no. But what we were observing only a few short years ago regarding the drift to conspiracism in sections of the Left and Green movements is repeated writ large by the lure of Russia/China/Assad etc.

 

[frogwoman]

An ex swappie mate was telling me yesterday that John Rees had a show on RT for some time for one thing. These groups may not have had much social or policy success but they were influential in some respects and some of the individuals involved were quite receptive to being courted by the Russian state.

 

[LDC]

It really isn't as low as you get. A daft attempt at provocation or genuine belief, it doesn't matter from a thousand miles away. But as far as 'how low can you go' gets, people are probably doing worse stuff down your street or mine right now.

Yes, OK, it isn't actually as low as you can go, thanks for making that clear. TBH between Galloway and the way you come across on here I'd be hard pushed to pick who was the more egotistical dickhead.

 

[chilango]

An ex swappie mate was telling me yesterday that John Rees had a show on RT for some time for one thing.

Yeah, but what else is John Rees gonna do?

He's spent his entire life devoted to the SWP, and now that has collapsed where does he go? There's no place in 'normal society' for the likes of him. So he grabs whatever driftwood floats past him.

 

[LDC]

Was talking about this with a mate yesterday. I'm not sure how much people realise courting the far left, far right and 'anti establishment' types in general has been so central to RT's business model over the years, they have poured loads into it and to some extent been successful. RT might now be blocked but, especially in Latin America and Africa, loads of people believe this shit. But also here.

I can see how they built a 'following' among bits of the 'activist left'. It courted them, gave them airtime, made them feel listened to. I've had plenty of disagreements with people I know who defended RT with the 'but the BBC is propaganda' line as well.

 

[LDC]

...also, as was so painful to witness with Corbyn, much of this "Left" is it's own social world with durable sub-cultural barriers and distinctions to enforce outsider vs. insider. So positions that might have made (some) sense decades ago are first entrenched and then ritualised into an unreflexive liturgy.

You've been reading that there philosophy again haven't you?

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah, but what else is John Rees gonna do?

He's spent his entire life devoted to the SWP, and now that has collapsed where does he go? There's no place in 'normal society' for the likes of him. So he grabs whatever driftwood floats past him.

I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think these people have had some influence (not saying that you are but you know). I think its allowed people to say it's marginal and has no social impact. But it hasn't, there's loads of people who believe this shit.

My grandma watched RT until it was blocked and the other week she was asking my dad 'how do you know the Ukrainians aren't Nazis' lol.

 

[chilango]

You've been reading that there philosophy again haven't you?

Technically - right now - I'm posting on Urban to avoid reading that there philosophy.

 

[chilango]

I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think these people have had some influence (not saying that you are but you know). I think its allowed people to say it's marginal and has no social impact. But it hasn't, there's loads of people who believe this shit.

My grandma watched RT until it was blocked and the other week she was asking my dad 'how do you know the Ukrainians aren't Nazis' lol.

I think it can be simultaneously marginal and have a social impact. In fact, in some ways, it is its appearence of marginality that lends it an attraction to those seeking alternative answers and information and belonging and...

 

[frogwoman]

There's a reason why the Russian state has poured so many resources into this stuff.

 

[Sue]

Can someone also please explain to me (or provide a link to an explanation for) why so many who call themselves leftists actively simp for Putin and the Russian Federation, when neither of them are even nominally communist?

Is it not just the same old 'enemy of my enemy' thing?

 

[chilango]

Is it not just the same old 'enemy of my enemy' thing?

Nah, though it plays on that. To be quite honest it's - almost - like a form of grooming in how it's offering meaning, esteem, and so on to people who are otherwise adrift and desperate.

Plus of course the grifters looking to get paid.

 

[LDC]

It's a mix of stuff. Old school '70s and 80s campist anti-imperialism. The destruction of large bits of class politics and their appeal, and their replacement with the politics of morals and personal choice. 9/11 and the shock and inability of the left to understand it. The Iraq war and broken trust of establishments like the BBC. A loss of social anchors for people; unions, political groups. Poor political education among those groups that do continue. Some out of control egos in some political groups. An inwards turning of focus by many of those groups. Explosion in the use of the internet for information. Money poured into disinformation campaigns by Russia etc. Growth in alienation and individualism, especially in people's daily lives around work, housing, etc. Corbyn and the movement about him that actively encouraged this stuff (The Canary, etc.) and also turned a blind eye to some of it. I could go on...

 

[chilango]

"Filling the vaccuum"...

 

[frogwoman]

Me and Shechemite had a good discussion about who RT stuff targets a while back

 

[frogwoman]

Tbh a lot of people still commited to 'class politics' have found themselves completely adrift on this one, look at the arguments on some of the other threads

 

[chilango]

Tbh a lot of people still commited to 'class politics' have found themselves completely adrift on this one, look at the arguments on some of the other threads

Yep. But that's "class politics" in a ritualistic sense rather than any attempt to use class a critical lens for analysis/action.

They have corpses in their mouths.

 

[hitmouse]

It's not, no. But what we were observing only a few short years ago regarding the drift to conspiracism in sections of the Left and Green movements is repeated writ large by the lure of Russia/China/Assad etc.

Yeah, I think the pro-Russia line is an inherently conspiracist one if it's argued out properly - get these people talking for long enough and Maidan can never be a social movement with all the complexities and contradictions that real social movements tend to have, arising out of the tensions and conflicts of Ukrainian society, etc etc etc, it always just has to be a US coup to install a puppet president.

Tbh a lot of people still commited to 'class politics' have found themselves completely adrift on this one, look at the arguments on some of the other threads

Yeah, and it certainly casts a shadow over irl activity - as someone who's been to the port of Liverpool twice recently, and generally speaking would recommend going to Liverpool/Dover/Hull/Cairnryan as being a useful and important thing that people who are committed to class politics should do, I think the first time I've ever seen an identifiable member of Galloway's Workers Party GB was the first time I went over, and the second time I was stood near a person doing the whole "US coup in 2014/NATO/nazis" etc etc spiel while waiting for things to start. Again, I think of that Telegraph article about the tube strike and so on.

 

[LDC]

FFS, when your first response to likely war crimes is to shout 'false flag' have a fucking look at yourself.

Honestly finding this whole topic pretty despairing, and very reminiscent of the positions around Syria. At the risk of hyperbole it feels like something is just broken on the Left with this stuff.

 

[frogwoman]

If you're yelling false flag you're helping war crimes happen.

 

[LDC]

I'm not sure about the significance of this at all, but looking through lots of this pro-Putin stuff on 'the left' people posting it also seem to post a fair amount of trans (woman=adult human female genre) related stuff.