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the neoliberal vision of the future

onarchy said:
Where did you get THAT from? I stated something that you can ask any mainstream holocaust researcher about, namely that there is very little PHYSICAL evidence of industrial extermination. This is not controversial. There are witness accounts, but that is not the same as physical evidence. Someone here claimed that there were plans of extermination dating back to 1935, and that is news to me, and therefore I asked for references to this.
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How were the death camps "incidental"? The death camps occurred before the Final Solution was made into official policy.

You're sailing perilously close to the skerries here.
 
Did_six_million_really_die.jpg


the truth at last
 
nino_savatte said:
The death camps were "incidental"? How did you work that out? WWII was also "incidental"? Have you never heard of the word "causality"? Hitler and Stalin signed the Pact of Steel, which Hitler later violated by invading the USSR. Hitler was only upset because Britain had declared war but there was nothing to suggest that war between the countries wasn't inevitable. On the contrary, it was. That is causality.
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Oh, on THAT account I agree, war was inevitable, and there was indeed a causal link, but that does not mean that the war itself was not incidental to the expressed views of Hitler and the Nazis. I agree that we should judge the Nazis by what they CAUSED not by what intentions they had in their heads. This is in fact how I want ALL forms of socialism judged. While socialism doesn't inevitably cause death camps, socialism does indeed cause thousands of deaths all over the world every single day in the form of structural violence. It is my view that socialism should be judged by this even though this is incidental to socialist ideology (i.e. not planned).
 
onarchy said:
Oh, on THAT account I agree, war was inevitable, and there was indeed a causal link, but that does not mean that the war itself was not incidental to the expressed views of Hitler and the Nazis. I agree that we should judge the Nazis by what they CAUSED not by what intentions they had in their heads. This is in fact how I want ALL forms of socialism judged. While socialism doesn't inevitably cause death camps, socialism does indeed cause thousands of deaths all over the world every single day in the form of structural violence. It is my view that socialism should be judged by this even though this is incidental to socialist ideology (i.e. not planned).
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Who are these "mainstream holocaust researchers"?
 
onarchy said:
Oh, on THAT account I agree, war was inevitable, and there was indeed a causal link, but that does not mean that the war itself was not incidental to the expressed views of Hitler and the Nazis. I agree that we should judge the Nazis by what they CAUSED not by what intentions they had in their heads. This is in fact how I want ALL forms of socialism judged. While socialism doesn't inevitably cause death camps, socialism does indeed cause thousands of deaths all over the world every single day in the form of structural violence. It is my view that socialism should be judged by this even though this is incidental to socialist ideology (i.e. not planned).
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Yet you refuse to countenance that the same could be the case for capitalism. Now, we know that you deny that there is such a thing as true capitalism out there in the world - which incidentally makes a bit of a mockery of your claims about the superiority of your peculiar brand of ultra-liberalism since there's no actual proof that it would work as you say - but in the world that most people, say 85% operate, the structural violence that kills people every day as a byproduct of the status quo is caused by capitalism, not socialism. It is the accumulation of capital in the hands of the few that dominate the markets that kills.
 
onarchy said:
Oh, on THAT account I agree, war was inevitable, and there was indeed a causal link, but that does not mean that the war itself was not incidental to the expressed views of Hitler and the Nazis. I agree that we should judge the Nazis by what they CAUSED not by what intentions they had in their heads. This is in fact how I want ALL forms of socialism judged. While socialism doesn't inevitably cause death camps, socialism does indeed cause thousands of deaths all over the world every single day in the form of structural violence. It is my view that socialism should be judged by this even though this is incidental to socialist ideology (i.e. not planned).
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Jews, Roma, gays, lesbians and others were rounded up and interned in death/slave labour camps in the early to mid 30's because they were considered "imperfect". Hitler was a committed anti-Semite for many years before he became fuhrer. Socialists and communists were also interned in labour camps; many of them never got out alive. Tying socialism to the Nazi project of industrialised extermination is philosophically bankrupt and serves to further illustrate your flawed logic.
 
Idris2002 said:
Because socialists don't deny or minimise the holocaust?
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It's much worse than that.
Onar Åm said:
But then we are back to the question of whether Hitler was evil, because he definitely believed that the Jews were a terrible threat to Germany. His internment of Jews was justified that they were capitalist pigs which undermined a just socialist Germany. In his mind this was only legitimate self-defense. We're back to Hitler in his world view had good intentions and that his actions were simply wrong because Hitler was so fundamentally wrong about capitalism and Jews.

There is only one reasonable scenario where Hitler ends up as an evil person, and that is if we judge his actions objectively. Clearly there is an objectively evil act to kill an innocent man, but Hitler was an evil morality? Or did he just happen to error?

Evil morality requires at some level that they make conscious acts that we know or should know is wrong. Hitler's evil is that he had many occasions throughout his life to studying alternative views and make their own world view during the critical spotlight. There were large numbers of times in his life when someone said that he was wrong, and he just dismissed them without any justification. Here lies his way to an evil morality. Step by step, he built a morality in which he chose to ignore information from certain types of sources and to ignore the criticism.

This is no course or obvious way to be evil, but I would argue that Hitler was evil in the identical manner as Berg Jens Stoltenberg, Kristin Halvorsen and other socialists are evil. Just think of it: there are tons of documentation on what kind of disaster plan financially central control ala the Soviet Union causes. We know with 100% certainty that if an entire society based on such central control end up like North Korea. All this is not only known but extremely well known. Any reasonably intelligent and educated people should know this. Nevertheless, in other words Stoltenberg and other socialists think of asserting that right in health does not the free market. Just in the area of ​​welfare, we must have a Soviet society.

The reason why socialists can so shockingly little about these things is because they choose to ignore all the knowledge in this area. Just as Hitler could never be imagined to listen to what a Jew has to say to most socialists no way intended to read a book written by a liberal. They deliberately choose ignorance and this makes them as guilty as Hitler.
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Translate link here: http://translate.googleusercontent....r-ond/&usg=ALkJrhiRi9V5a-i-whzp3CPKxY7Su3OHjw
 
onarchy said:
Where did you get THAT from? I stated something that you can ask any mainstream holocaust researcher about, namely that there is very little PHYSICAL evidence of industrial extermination. This is not controversial. There are witness accounts, but that is not the same as physical evidence. Someone here claimed that there were plans of extermination dating back to 1935, and that is news to me, and therefore I asked for references to this.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you prefer this explanation:

"in order to put a stop to the epidemics, we were forced to burn the bodies of incalculable numbers of people who been destroyed by disease. We were therefore forced to build crematoria..."

or this:

"I always thought that [concentration camps] were places where people were put to useful work. Those pictures that you showed me yesterday [of Dachau] must depict things that happened in the final few days."

You can trace the sources if your interested.

As for the 1935 plans, they are with specific reference to the systematic killing of the mentally ill and the handicapped, for which war is anticipated as providing a 'cover'. Of course the US Holocaust Memorial Museum may be playing fast and loose with the truth.

Louis MacNeice
 
JimW said:
Postone had a great essay on the centrality of the Holocaust to German Nazism: http://libcom.org/library/anti-semitism-national-socialism-moishe-postone
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No, as far as I can see this article deals with the centrality of ANTI-SEMITISM to Nazism. I have written on this very topic many times. The Jews were targeted by Hitler, because they were so strongly present as industrialists and capitalists that to many Jew and capitalist was one and the same thing. This very point is brought up in this article:

"The point to be made here, however, is that a careful examination of the modern anti-Semitic worldview reveals that it is a form of thought in which the rapid development of industrial capitalism, with all its social ramifications, is/ /personified and identified as the Jew."

Which brings us back to the fact that the Nazis were SOCIALISTS, but with a racial aspect to them. Just like the communists seek a "Final Solution" for capitalism and capitalists at large, the Nazis sought to find a "Final Solution" for Jewry and jews at large, and for the very same reason.
 
Which brings us back to the fact that the Nazis were SOCIALISTS, but with a racial aspect to them. Just like the communists seek a "Final Solution" for capitalism and capitalists at large, the Nazis sought to find a "Final Solution" for Jewry and jews at large, and for the very same reason.
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It's odd how you can't account for the numbers of socialists interned by the Nazis and persist with this half-witted notion that the Nazis were 'socialists'. Anyone would think that you were engaging in a wilfully ignorant discourse of historical revisionism.
 
onarchy said:
No, as far as I can see this article deals with the centrality of ANTI-SEMITISM to Nazism. I have written on this very topic many times. The Jews were targeted by Hitler, because they were so strongly present as industrialists and capitalists that to many Jew and capitalist was one and the same thing. This very point is brought up in this article:

"The point to be made here, however, is that a careful examination of the modern anti-Semitic worldview reveals that it is a form of thought in which the rapid development of industrial capitalism, with all its social ramifications, is/ /personified and identified as the Jew."

Which brings us back to the fact that the Nazis were SOCIALISTS, but with a racial aspect to them. Just like the communists seek a "Final Solution" for capitalism and capitalists at large, the Nazis sought to find a "Final Solution" for Jewry and jews at large, and for the very same reason.
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Can you provide a reference to these "mainstream holocaust researchers".
 
onarchy said:
No, as far as I can see this article deals with the centrality of ANTI-SEMITISM to Nazism. I have written on this very topic many times. The Jews were targeted by Hitler, because they were so strongly present as industrialists and capitalists that to many Jew and capitalist was one and the same thing. This very point is brought up in this article:

"The point to be made here, however, is that a careful examination of the modern anti-Semitic worldview reveals that it is a form of thought in which the rapid development of industrial capitalism, with all its social ramifications, is/ /personified and identified as the Jew."

Which brings us back to the fact that the Nazis were SOCIALISTS, but with a racial aspect to them. Just like the communists seek a "Final Solution" for capitalism and capitalists at large, the Nazis sought to find a "Final Solution" for Jewry and jews at large, and for the very same reason.
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Seeking to transcend a set of social relations is not the same as looking to kill Europe's jews. You are back to heading the snooker ball with a vengence.

Now can you answer the questions re. your holocaust historians and scientists?

Louis MacNeice
 
Idris2002 said:
OK, I now feel physically sick, and I'm not joking either.
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Same here. I feel physically sick too, and not joking. My stomach turned when I read it, and I broke into a sweat, my head started pounding, and then the bile rose. Bleurgh. e2a: and now the tears roll. This kind of shit really affects me.
 
OMG, he's just logged out and not replied. Why hasn't he replied? He should know which mainstream researchers he's basing his position without having to refer to his notes, surely, since he claims he's written about the holocaust so many times?
 
onarchy said:
Where did you get THAT from? I stated something that you can ask any mainstream holocaust researcher about, namely that there is very little PHYSICAL evidence of industrial extermination. This is not controversial. There are witness accounts, but that is not the same as physical evidence. Someone here claimed that there were plans of extermination dating back to 1935, and that is news to me, and therefore I asked for references to this.
Click to expand...

Why not ask those who lost their relatives in the death camps? You loathsome piece of shit.
 
Louis MacNeice said:
Perhaps you prefer this explanation:

"in order to put a stop to the epidemics, we were forced to burn the bodies of incalculable numbers of people who been destroyed by disease. We were therefore forced to build crematoria..."
Click to expand...

That's not exactly an extermination plan, is it?


As for the 1935 plans, they are with specific reference to the systematic killing of the mentally ill and the handicapped, for which war is anticipated as providing a 'cover'. Of course the US Holocaust Memorial Museum may be playing fast and loose with the truth.
Click to expand...

No, again this is not the same as a plan to exterminate the Jews. During the 1920s and 1930s forced eugenics and killing of "useless" people was very popular, not just in Germany, but throughout all of the West. Remember, Nazism and Fascism was part of the mainstream of intellectual thought at the time. Here is a video of Nobel Prize Winner and Fabian Socialist George Bernard Shaw who expressed the desire to kill "useless" individuals for "the greater good" very explicitly:



So as such plans of exterminating the mentally ill or the handicapped was not exclusive to the Nazis. On the contrary, it was quite mainstream at the time.

Also, here is another video clip of the Fabian socialist Shaw where he praises Mussolini, but suggests that he might be slightly too authoritarian.

 
Louis MacNeice said:
Do you think Onar is indulging in holocaust denial?
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I hope not. I'd be surprised, too. It's contrary to his stated position that Hitler was a socialist and that socialists are evil.

Is being edgy and provocative that important to you?

Louis MacNeice
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No. I'm just not seeing as big a difference between you all as you seem to think there is. Opposite sides of the same coin.
 
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