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the neoliberal vision of the future

Yep. That's a good explanation.

I think I can see some of Onar's thinking coming through here, though. The comparison with religion is instructive in that way. It would appear that he is atheist, and he is right to say that most people in the world are not atheist. I'm atheist too, and I'm pretty damn sure I'm right in my atheism and those who are not atheists are wrong. Thus, even if 95% ;) of the rest of the world thinks I'm wrong, or even nuts, I'm not going to be shaken from my (absence of)belief.

I think he views his political opinions in the same way. Here, he plays the role of the atheist who has seen through the hocus-pocus, while the rest of us play the role of the gullible believers, yet to have the wool pulled back from our eyes.

A sort of messiah?
 
IThe evidence points in the direction that Hitler never had any intentions of starting a war.

Yeah, apart from the massive military build-up he ordered. He probably didn't expect to start a war in 1939 (he told Mussolini it would be 1942 at the earliest) but all his plans and all his politics meant war and he knew it.

Now that we have the Loon Bingo completed, the banhammer can't be much longer.
 
I regard the death camps as incidental, and largely a product of WWII which was also incidental. The evidence points in the direction that Hitler never had any intentions of starting a war. After the allies declared war Hitler was reportedly both very surprised and depressed. It was logical that Hitler was surprised. He was an ally with Stalin, and Stalin also invaded Poland. Yet Britain did not go to war with Stalin. Why? This was something Hitler could not have predicted and did not expect.

The death camps were "incidental"? How did you work that out? WWII was also "incidental"? Have you never heard of the word "causality"? Hitler and Stalin signed the Pact of Steel, which Hitler later violated by invading the USSR. Hitler was only upset because Britain had declared war but there was nothing to suggest that war between the countries wasn't inevitable. On the contrary, it was. That is causality.
 
Fucking hell, that's David Irvine territory right there. Everyone has the right to be a cunt Onar but you're abusing the privilege.
 
Louis MacNeice said:
Why remove the death camps - the extermination policy they helped to put in practice dates back to 1935 - do you see them as not important?
I know that the Nazis had plans to rid Europe of Jewry, not totally unlike many Europeans today want to rid Europe of muslims -- by kicking them out. Many "endloesungs" were discussed by the Germans and as late as after the war had started the Nazis planned to ship the Jews to Madagascar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

However, I have never seen any evidence of concrete extermination plans. In fact, among Holocaust scientists it is widely acknowledged that the research is plagued by a lack of concrete physical evidence of industrial extermination. Therefore I would be very greatful for any reference to such material.

p.s. removing the death camps from your political evaluation of fascism does put you in a minority...just not in the good way you'd like.

I regard the death camps as incidental, and largely a product of WWII which was also incidental. The evidence points in the direction that Hitler never had any intentions of starting a war. After the allies declared war Hitler was reportedly both very surprised and depressed. It was logical that Hitler was surprised. He was an ally with Stalin, and Stalin also invaded Poland. Yet Britain did not go to war with Stalin. Why? This was something Hitler could not have predicted and did not expect.

All the major deaths in the concentration camps occurred during the war, so if the war had't happened (which was not planned) then the evidence indicates that there would not have been any death camps either. Hence, the death camps are incidental, and not an integral part of Nazism, not any more integral than Stalin's death camps are to communism.

Wow, holocaust denial now! :eek:

uh65410_1283182633_uf633141276201797TripleFacePalm_display_image.jpg
 
I wonder how market fundamentalists account for Norway having the most productive workforces in the world?

If the free market was such a wonderful way to create efficiencies I would have thought that the social democratic countries in Europe would struggle to keep up with the US. As it happens If you measure productivity in terms of hours worked the US is way down the list.

First of all, the US is not "way down on the list," they are significantly above OECD average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OECD_Productivity_levels_2007.svg

Second, it is not hard to explain this. A) in the United States MORE people are working, whereas in European welfare states (such as Sweden) up to 20% of the people in working age is unemployed or on social security or in government programs. Since only the the most productive actually work in France and in Sweden the productivity numbers per GDP are skewed upwards. Norway is an outlier. Our unusually high productivity is due to oil. Third, maybe the United States is not as economically free as most Europeans believe? The US has a huge welfare state too, and it has very high taxes for businesses (approaching 40%). Also, most people never consider the cost of America's horrid tort law. We've all heard about crazy lawsuits are in the US, where people can be rewarded money for spilling hot coffee on themselves because they weren't warned that the hot coffee was actually hot. We laugh of these lawsuits, but extremely few know that this tort law system places a heavy cost on US businesses that make them a lot less productive. Even fewer know that these laws were created by socialists specifically to promote "social engineering" and redistribution of wealth from the rich corporations to the poor consumers. Tort law is better in most European countries and they therefore have an advantage.

Finally, in a global economy capitalism makes it extremely hard to stay on top. Even quite illiberal regimes are able to become quite productive by importing technology developed in more liberal countries. Norway has not developed the vast majority if technologies that are utilized in Norway. They're invented elsewhere, typically in the US. The ability to "outsource" innovation to liberal countries makes it easier for the illiberal countries to keep up with and in some cases even get aheade of the liberal countries.
 
Also, most people never consider the cost of America's horrid tort law. We've all heard about crazy lawsuits are in the US, where people can be rewarded money for spilling hot coffee on themselves because they weren't warned that the hot coffee was actually hot. We laugh of these lawsuits, but extremely few know that this tort law system places a heavy cost on US businesses that make them a lot less productive. Even fewer know that these laws were created by socialists specifically to promote "social engineering" and redistribution of wealth from the rich corporations to the poor consumers. Tort law is better in most European countries and they therefore have an advantage.

Your demented claim about the alleged socialist inspiration behind US tort law aside, the famous hot coffee lawsuit did not go down as you describe:

Adults enjoy very hot beverages, close to 95°C (over 200°F), but we know how to sip them very slowly with lots of cooling air, and even we occasionally burn our tongues. When we spill such beverages on our skin, we know to wave the affected area around to cool it rapidly, or run it under cold water ASAP. Children and senior citizens have more sensitive and thinner skin, and just one second of hot coffee on a child's arm can cause a full-penetration third-degree burn. Lots of organizations warn about the dangers of hot liquid around children.

In the famous McDonald's case, a 79-year-old woman was served 180°F to 190°F coffee (82°C to 89°C) in a thin cup in a drive-thru. She put the cup between her legs to stabilize it -- trying to be careful -- and removed the lid to add cream and sugar. The coffee sloshed out upon removing the lid, quickly giving her third-degree burns across her groin, inner thighs, and buttocks. She spent eight days in a hospital, had to go through skin grafts, and was disabled for more than two years -- all for a 49-cent cup of coffee in a flimsy cup that McDonald's served way, way too hot for a drive-in window.

And the company knew, too. The company had received "at least 700" scalding coffee reports in the previous ten years, some involving children ("Go get Daddy a refill" shouldn't be a dangerous statement). It settled some of these claims for up to $500,000. In this case, the woman's medical bills totalled over $11,000. McDonald's offered her $800 to go away. A court-appointed mediator recommended that McDonald's settle for $225,000, but the company refused, went to trial -- and was hit with $200,000 in compensatory damages (reduced to $160,000 as the jury attributed 20% of the fault to the woman for having the coffee in her lap), and $2.7 million in punitive damages, based on the fact that at that time, McDonald's earned $1.35 million per day in coffee revenues. The damage award was two days' worth of McDonald's corporate coffee income. Even that was later reduced to $480,000, but before the appeals could be decided, the woman and McDonald's settled privately with undisclosed and confidential terms.

$480,000 is the money McDonald's takes in for coffee sales in 8.5 hours, and that was eight years ago.

Now comes the fun part: not jumping to conclusions. Insisting that all coffee be served no hotter than 120°F (50°C) is just as much a kid-proofing of the world as insisting that all Internet content be censored unless its suitable for 12-year-olds. However, given a ten-year history of complaints about physical injuries from coffee burns, what should McDonald's have done? Served the coffee in more spill-proof cups? Provided better containers for adding cream and sugar without the risk of a spill in a car? Lowered the temperature some?

Each of these actions would have cost McDonald's money and reduced profit, but they would have spared people from physical injury, including the horribly debilitating one experienced by the woman in this case. This woman took a cup of coffee given from a drive-thru (allegedly designed for car drinking), added the cream and sugar from the provided receptacles (as designed), and wound up with burns that required skin grafts -- and McDonald's corporate offices knew the designs were injuring people combined with the temperature of the coffee.

Punitive damages are designed to change a company's behavior, to make it start behaving more responsibly instead of hurting people in the name of profit. They're punishment -- hence the name "punitive." Juries that find irresponsibility undeserving of punishment can compensate victims without awarding punitive damages. Within days of this verdict, the corporate spinmeisters that want no oversight of any business action had made this into a joke about a woman too dumb to drink coffee. The jury, who heard the facts, found that the woman was doing exactly what she was supposed to do with the coffee and suffered for two years because of it -- and that McDonald's could have prevented it because the company knew these injuries were happening. It was just cheaper to pay off the people who actually sued than stop the injuries.

Those are the kinds of issues juries are supposed to decide.

1skz.jpg
 
Finally, in a global economy capitalism makes it extremely hard to stay on top. Even quite illiberal regimes are able to become quite productive by importing technology developed in more liberal countries. Norway has not developed the vast majority if technologies that are utilized in Norway. They're invented elsewhere, typically in the US. The ability to "outsource" innovation to liberal countries makes it easier for the illiberal countries to keep up with and in some cases even get aheade of the liberal countries.

Except you just said that the US wasn't a liberal country. Have some more coffee, think about whether you really wanna go down the holocaust denial route and then get back to us.
 
Wow, holocaust denial now! :eek:

Where did you get THAT from? I stated something that you can ask any mainstream holocaust researcher about, namely that there is very little PHYSICAL evidence of industrial extermination. This is not controversial. There are witness accounts, but that is not the same as physical evidence. Someone here claimed that there were plans of extermination dating back to 1935, and that is news to me, and therefore I asked for references to this.
 
among Holocaust scientists it is widely acknowledged that the research is plagued by a lack of concrete physical evidence of industrial extermination.

Back this up, cunt.

I spit on you on behalf of the millions that that were industrially exterminated.

See this man?

Primo%2520Levi.jpg


He was worth 6 million of your kind.
 
Where did you get THAT from? I stated something that you can ask any mainstream holocaust researcher about, namely that there is very little PHYSICAL evidence of industrial extermination. This is not controversial. There are witness accounts, but that is not the same as physical evidence. Someone here claimed that there were plans of extermination dating back to 1935, and that is news to me, and therefore I asked for references to this.

Are just more of a holocaust revisionist?
 
Where did you get THAT from? I stated something that you can ask any mainstream holocaust researcher about, namely that there is very little PHYSICAL evidence of industrial extermination. This is not controversial. There are witness accounts, but that is not the same as physical evidence. Someone here claimed that there were plans of extermination dating back to 1935, and that is news to me, and therefore I asked for references to this.

Can you reference some of these "mainstream holocaust researchers" please.
 
I stated something that you can ask any mainstream holocaust researcher about, namely that there is very little PHYSICAL evidence of industrial extermination.

1skz.jpg


Sadly, no.

A Study of the Cyanide Compounds Content In The Walls Of The Gas Chambers in the Former Auschwitz and Birkenau Concentration Camps

by Jan Markiewicz, Wojciech Gubala, Jerzy Labedz
Institute of Forensic Research, Cracow

ABSTRACT: In a widespread campaign to deny the existence of extermination camps with gas chambers the "revisionists" have recently started using the results of the examinations of fragments of ruins of former crematoria. These results (Leuchter, Rudolf) allegedly prove that the materials under examination had not been in contact with cyanide, unlike the wall fragments of delousing buildings in which the revisionists discovered considerable amount of cyanide compounds. Systematic research, involving most sensitive analytical methods, undertaken by the Institute confirmed the presence of cyanide compounds in all kinds of gas chamber ruins, even in the basement of Block 11 in Auschwitz, where first, experimental gassing of victims by means of Zyklon B had been carried out. The analysis of control samples, taken from other places (especially from living quarters) yielded unequivocally negative results. For the sake of interpretation several laboratory experiments have been carried out.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/chemistry/iffr/report.shtml
 
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