The 'Naked Rambler' jailed for 22 months, following arrest within 60 seconds of his release!

[Spymaster]

No, I'm saying you are performing a sex act. One that involves unwilling participants. A sexual assault.
Where as the bearded fellow is just walking along a road.

I disagree. Show me a definition of sexual assault that would include public wanking.

What you mean is that others may find my actions sexually intimidating, and you'd be right.

Well guess what, there are people out there who find beardy fellas in the buff intimidating too. No doubt you'd call them uptight prudes who need to get a life.

The thing is, uptight prudes have just as many rights as you or Gough have. so now tell me why you or he trump them.

 

[Wilf]

All the comparisons with trans people being harrassed in public or the recent stories on gay couples getting thrown of the bus or whatever show this isn't a question of absolute principles. Unambiguously anybody who claims they should be protected from seeing gay couples live their lives openly should be to fuck right off. However, my judgement call is that there's a real chance that a display of your genitals will call genuine offence or alarm in certain circumstances. Yes, we should all lighten up about the human body and even more so the state should play the whole thing with a light touch. It's insanity what has happened to him in this battle of wills with the courts & prison service. Same time, it's just one of those occasions where a reasonable, thoughtful adult should exercise their rights in a way that considers other people - in particular, keeping it covered up in town centres etc. Not a statement of principle, just a sensible way of living your life..... in this case.

Suppose what I'm really saying is living your life with an eye to not so much conventions, but real people's feelings is tricky, messy and contradictory, but something that's at least worth thinking about. Trouble is, withe Gough thing it's gone way beyond that and just become a horrible cat and mouse game with the state.

 

[Mr Moose]

Nobody has answered this yet. Maybe you can give it a crack, joustmaster

Because it's fucking stupid and you playing that well beloved game 'Internets'.

Are you imagining it's somehow trumped all arguments and no one can answer it?

 

[joustmaster]

You're sort of not really making an argument if you just ignore the awkward questions.

it depends on why you are doing it, and what you are specifically doing.

 

[joustmaster]

Nobody has answered this yet. Maybe you can give it a crack, joustmaster

yes, its sad that people can feel unsafe.
but the world can't walk on eggshells to try and make sure everyone else is ok, all the time.
my friend doesn't like men with ginger beards because of an abusive boyfriend. but he doesn't expect ginger men to shave around him.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I'd add that being shocked or offended by something shouldn't automatically lead us to demand that the offending practice is banned or suppressed. Sometimes it's worth critically reflecting upon our reactions and asking whether they are justified, and encouraging others to do the same. From what I can tell this guy has never expressed any desire to harm or upset others. For whatever reason, he regards being permanently naked as deeply important to his sense of self. Would it not behoove us as a society to try to at be tolerant to his idiosyncratic quirk? Would we not be the better for that?

 

[Mr Moose]

So you reckon it's ok for some geezer to cruise through a crowd of kids with his cock out?

There's probably an argument for keeping him banged up for his own safety too. I can think of several areas where he'd likely end up lynched or with a rottweiler swinging from his nutsack if he pulled that shit again.

Has this ever happened? It doesn't seem to me that his nudity actually bothers too many people.

 

[joustmaster]

I disagree. Show me a definition of sexual assault that would include public wanking.

What you mean is that others may find my actions sexually intimidating, and you'd be right.

Well guess what, there are people out there who find beardy fellas in the buff intimidating too. No doubt you'd call them uptight prudes who need to get a life.

The thing is, uptight prudes have just as many rights as you or Gough have. so now tell me why you or he trump them.

I would entirely consider someone masturbating in public a form of sexual abuse. especially having had a couple of friends the victim of such a thing.

not a case of intimidation. but of assault.

 

[Citizen66]

yes, its sad that people can feel unsafe.
but the world can't walk on eggshells to try and make sure everyone else is ok, all the time.
my friend doesn't like men with ginger beards because of an abusive boyfriend. but he doesn't expect ginger men to shave around him.

But you're actually arguing the opposite. That naked rambler should be accommodated and to hell with how everyone else feels about it.

 

[Citizen66]

it depends on why you are doing it, and what you are specifically doing.

Just answer the question. It's cool for me to wander around stark naked when there's ten year old kids in the house y/n?

 

[Wilf]

I'd add that being shocked or offended by something shouldn't automatically lead us to demand that the offending practice is banned or suppressed. Sometimes it's worth critically reflecting upon our reactions and asking whether they are justified, and encouraging others to do the same. From what I can tell this guy has never expressed any desire to harm or upset others. For whatever reason, he regards being permanently naked as deeply important to his sense of self. Would it not behoove us as a society to try to at be tolerant to his idiosyncratic quirk? Would we not be the better for that?

Good post and all undoubtedly true - particularly at and abstract or general level. However it's the reality on the ground, whether somebody in a shop is okay about having a nudey feller in close proximity - all that lived experience that brings the rights of communities back in.

Suppose I'm arguing a 'rights and responsibiliites' line, which feels slightly uncomfortable and conservative. However I struggle to go with a pure libertarian position that his priorities should over ride those around him.

 

[joustmaster]

But you're actually arguing the opposite. That naked rambler should be accommodated and to hell with how everyone else feels about it.

yes. thats what I am saying.
things that endanger people should be restricted.
things that a number of people aren't keen on shouldn't.

a ginger bearded man isn't a danger, but it is upsetting to some people. there is no danger. so this shouldn't be banned.
a naked man passing a person who has been sexually assaulted in the past is upsetting, but not a danger. so it shouldn't be banned.
spymaster wanking in town is sexually motivated against people who are not willing participants. its dangerous. it is banned.

 

[Citizen66]

Because it's fucking stupid and you playing that well beloved game 'Internets'.

Are you imagining it's somehow trumped all arguments and no one can answer it?

What of the rights of sexual abuse victims not to feel threatened by male nakedness everywhere they turn? I suspect a bit of sexism behind your stance to hand all rights to gough and fuck everyone else.

 

[joustmaster]

Just answer the question. It's cool for me to wander around stark naked when there's ten year old kids in the house y/n?

i did answer the question.
its not ok in some circumstances.
it is ok in others.

 

[Citizen66]

yes. thats what I am saying.
things that endanger people should be restricted.
things that a number of people aren't keen on shouldn't.

So you wouldn't even ask the kids or their parents if they minded at all oh selfish child of Thatcher?

 

[Mr Moose]

Just answer the question. It's cool for me to wander around stark naked when there's ten year old kids in the house y/n?

You are missing the point. It's fine for some things to be considered against the norm. Our Naked buddy can't expect a job in a school or in customer service. In fact probably selling Ice Creams on a nudist beach is going to be it other than home-working. He can also be refused entry to both private and public establishments. But prison?

We can just reserve the right to ostracise and criticise. We don't need to stick him in jail.

 

[joustmaster]

What of the rights of sexual abuse victims not to feel threatened by male nakedness everywhere they turn? I suspect a bit of sexism behind your stance to hand all rights to gough and fuck everyone else.

people are frightened of all sorts of things. such is life.
the important things that our laws should be doing is protecting from actual dangers.

 

[Spymaster]

Has this ever happened?

Twice.

Once in Dunfermline and once in Fife.

 

[Citizen66]

You are missing the point. It's fine for some things to be considered against the norm. Our Naked buddy can't expect a job in a school or in customer service. In fact probably selling Ice Creams on a nudist beach is going to be it other than home-working. He can also be refused entry to both private and public establishments. But prison?

We can just reserve the right to ostracise and criticise. We don't need to stick him in jail.

What is pissing me off is that at the heart of this you're basically arguing in favour of doing as you please regardless of the feelings of others and if there's a problem then it's their attitude at fault and not your behaviour because you say so.

What an incredibly selfish outlook but sadly all too common.

 

[Mr Moose]

What of the rights of sexual abuse victims not to feel threatened by male nakedness everywhere they turn? I suspect a bit of sexism behind your stance to hand all rights to gough and fuck everyone else.

What? You think female victims of sexual abuse are most worried about the behaviour of eccentric, probably damaged individuals? I would imagine it's the run of the mill, casual behaviour of cocky ordinary men that bothers them the most.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Good post and all undoubtedly true - particularly at and abstract or general level. However it's the reality on the ground, whether somebody in a shop is okay about having a nudey feller in close proximity - all that lived experience that brings the rights of communities back in.

Suppose I'm arguing a 'rights and responsibiliites' line, which feels slightly uncomfortable and conservative. However I struggle to go with a pure libertarian position that his priorities should over ride those around him.

My position is not that his priorities should override everyone else's interests, but rather that others should at least reflect on whether he really is harming their interests. We don't want to become an ossified society in which the first reaction to anything that makes us feel uncomfortable or awkward is ban it! stop it! As joustmaster pointed out, in the past people were scandalised by the sight of exposed ankles. All I'm saying is that when it comes to offending people's sensibilities its a two way street in which both the offender and the offended should take stock of their actions and reactions.

 

[joustmaster]

So you wouldn't even ask the kids or their parents if they minded at all oh selfish child of Thatcher?

Where did I say that?
I said in some circumstances it would be OK. In others it wouldn't.
I have some friends who I am sure wouldn't mind me being naked in front of their kids. I have some that would mind. Thats not what we are talking about. here though. We are talking about a man walking from one place to another undressed, past strangers.

What's with this thatcher stuff?

 

[joustmaster]

What is pissing me off is that at the heart of this you're basically arguing in favour of doing as you please regardless of the feelings of others and if there's a problem then it's their attitude at fault and not your behaviour because you say so.

What an incredibly selfish outlook but sadly all too common.

I've just had a look out of the window at central London. There are loads of people there.
Literally everything I do will offend someone.
And, in turn, I am offended several times a day by other people. But I can't remember the last time I demanded any be put in prison.

 

[Mr Moose]

What is pissing me off is that at the heart of this you're basically arguing in favour of doing as you please regardless of the feelings of others and if there's a problem then it's their attitude at fault and not your behaviour because you say so.

What an incredibly selfish outlook but sadly all too common.

You do like to play daft don't you? I'm saying the opposite. I'm saying we can condemn his behaviour just like we can air our disapproval to Lady Gaga and her distasteful meat dress.

He can be excluded from public life and denied certain work unless he meets the expected behaviour. We can ask him to cover up. We can tell him we don't like it.

But we should not imprison him merely for being naked and disobedient. All the stuff about sexual behaviour is a red herring unless he actually commits sexual misconduct.

 

[Spymaster]

not a case of intimidation. but of assault.

Only by your reckoning.

Do you not think that there are people out there who find Gough's nudity just as repellent as you'd find my wanking in Trafalgar Square?

 

[twentythreedom]

All the comparisons with trans people being harrassed in public or the recent stories on gay couples getting thrown of the bus or whatever show this isn't a question of absolute principles. Unambiguously anybody who claims they should be protected from seeing gay couples live their lives openly should be to fuck right off. However, my judgement call is that there's a real chance that a display of your genitals will call genuine offence or alarm in certain circumstances. Yes, we should all lighten up about the human body and even more so the state should play the whole thing with a light touch. It's insanity what has happened to him in this battle of wills with the courts & prison service. Same time, it's just one of those occasions where a reasonable, thoughtful adult should exercise their rights in a way that considers other people - in particular, keeping it covered up in town centres etc. Not a statement of principle, just a sensible way of living your life..... in this case.

Suppose what I'm really saying is living your life with an eye to not so much conventions, but real people's feelings is tricky, messy and contradictory, but something that's at least worth thinking about. Trouble is, withe Gough thing it's gone way beyond that and just become a horrible cat and mouse game with the state.

This

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Only by your reckoning.

Do you not think that there are people out there who find Gough's nudity just as repellent as you'd find my wanking in Trafalgar Square?

Out of interest, what is it about Trafalgar Square that arouses you so much? Do you imagine sliding along Nelson's Column?

 

[joustmaster]

Only by your reckoning.

Do you not think that there are people out there who find Gough's nudity just as repellent as you'd find my wanking in Trafalgar Square?

no. not anyone of sound mind.
do you seriously think its the same?

I think its offensive to victims of that sort of sexual attack to even suggest it is on a par.

 

[Mr Moose]

...

What's with this thatcher stuff?

Just the latest in a line of insult throwing arguments covering selfishness, 'woolly liberalism' sexism and lack of sensitivity to victims of abuse.

Merely because of a wish to keep a lid on the states ability to lock people up. And this is the 'libertarian left' on Urban!

 

[Spymaster]

Sheriff Williamson told Gough he realised his motives for refusing to get dressed were not "sinister", but slammed him for his refusal to co-operate with the preparation of a social background report.

He said: "I had hoped it [the report] would assist me in dealing with you without sending you back to prison -- but you leave me no choice.

"The police officers who arrested you told you that if you carried on your journey you would pass a playground occupied by children.

"You were given three options -- one, change direction, two, cover your private parts, or three, enter a police van which would take you around the playpark and release you on your way at the other side.

"Despite that, you refused, which showed disregard for other members of the public, in particular children who have the right not to see naked men.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...iled-again-after-refusing-to-get-dressed.html

I've no problem with this arrogant wanker being in prison.