The kulaks are revolting - does Urban back big farmer?

[tim]

I can't muster much sympathy for these people who don't like being asked paying tax, but I'm not terribly rural. My great grandfather had no choice when the land he farmed was sold by the squire to the developers and turned into Whitton, but I don't think any of us missed out as a consequence, and those waving pitchforks today are the squierachy rather than their tennants.

I also think that in Capitalist terms that any business with such valuable assets should be capable of paying its way.

Does anyone have more sympathy with ordinary country volk?

 

[Pickman's model]

I can't muster much sympathy for these people who don't like being asked paying tax, but I'm not terribly rural. My great grandfathers had no choice when the land he farmed was sold by the squire to the developers and turned into Whitton, but I don't think any of us missed out as a consequence, and those waving pitchforks today are the squierachy rather than their tennants.

I also think that in Capitalist terms that any business with such valuable assets should be capable of paying its way.

Does anyone have more sympathy with ordinary country volk?

i think that knocking farmers is an easy way to get applause and that the policy is intended to have other results, such as large multinationals accumulating land. it's going to be another reason why at the next election the labour party are going to see their majority melt away.

 

[brogdale]

I can't muster much sympathy for these people who don't like being asked paying tax, but I'm not terribly rural. My great grandfathers had no choice when the land he farmed was sold by the squire to the developers and turned into Whitton, but I don't think any of us missed out as a consequence, and those waving pitchforks today are the squierachy rather than their tennants.

I also think that in Capitalist terms that any business with such valuable assets should be capable of paying its way.

Does anyone have more sympathy with ordinary country volk?

I definitely have sympathy with ordinary country volk, (my family), less so with the directors of limited companies holding rural land ("farmers") who whinge about having to pay half the IHT that everyone else does. Of course being a limited company means that any profit under £50k attracts just a 19% tax rate; amazing how many farms make under £50k pa innit?

 

[marty21]

I blame Jeremy Clarkson for this mess - if he hadn't given it large about buying a farm to avoid inheritance tax, that little loophole might have stayed and farmers wouldn't be driving tractors all over the shop.

 

[brogdale]

All them tractors, eh?

 

[planetgeli]

farmers wouldn't be driving tractors all over the shop.

Yeah but they're shit at it.

cf France

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I definitely have sympathy with ordinary country volk, (my family), less so with the directors of limited companies holding rural land ("farmers") who whinge about having to pay half the IHT that everyone else does. Of course being a limited company means that any profit under £50k attracts just a 19% tax rate; amazing how many farms make under £50k pa innit?

My sympathy might be quite regional as well. Smaller farms, especially in upland areas, really can have it quite hard, even if the land is worth a fair bit.

If you own a good bit of Sussex, less so.

 

[Winot]

Hardly any of the smaller ones are going to have to pay IHT.

 

[brogdale]

Hardly any of the smaller ones are going to have to pay IHT.

Especially if the owners happen to be married when their exemption reaches close to £3m anyway.

 

[Maggot]

Hardly any of the smaller ones are going to have to pay IHT.

And like all taxes they only have to pay it on the amount over the threshold.

This explains it well.

How many farms would be affected by Budget changes?

Estimates of the number of farms affected range from 100 to 70,000.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[brogdale]

On the side of those ordinary people...



"Family Farm tax"

 

[furluxor]

I haven't looked into this with any depth but a quick glance suggests that:

• Clarkson/Farage pronto to gulags
• in principle the government are right, but it could be that the 1 million threshold is too low - I don't know how farms are valued but I'd assume they researched this before landing on that number
• if the issue is "farming is financially unviable", imho inheritance tax is the wrong vehicle to correct the problem

 

[Saul Goodman]

I'm torn on this one.
Farmers make fuck all money, unless they're really big. Supermarkets and people's incomes make sure of that, but farmers tend to not give a single fuck about anybody but themselves, so I find it hard to muster a fuck for them.
It's a topic that should be discussed but I really can't be arsed, because, as per, the only thing that will happen is the rich will get richer, whilst swallowing up the small guy... Same as it ever was.

 

[brogdale]

I haven't looked into this with any depth but a quick glance suggests that:

• Clarkson/Farage pronto to gulags
• in principle the government are right, but it could be that the 1 million threshold is too low - I don't know how farms are valued but I'd assume they researched this before landing on that number
• if the issue is "farming is financially unviable", imho inheritance tax is the wrong vehicle to correct the problem

Big if there. Not wishing to align with the vile McTernan, but he made the valid point that when the British state declared that coal-mines were "uneconomic" they were shut. If and when we see farms shut, abandoned and re-wilded then, and only then will I buy into the notion that farming is "financially unviable". Oh, and when the rural bosses stop driving around in top of the range fuck-off Merc SUVs.

 

[UnderOpenSky]

I'm torn on this one.
Farmers make fuck all money, unless they're really big. Supermarkets and people's incomes make sure of that, but farmers tend to not give a single fuck about anybody but themselves, so I find it hard to muster a fuck for them.
It's a topic that should be discussed but I really can't be arsed, because, as per, the only thing that will happen is the rich will get richer, whilst swallowing up the small guy... Same as it ever was.

Yeah, I mean, when those who can't afford it sell up, it's not like it's going to anyone other than the rich who buy.

If you're stupid enough to want to get into farming, it's incredibly hard.

 

[brogdale]

I'm torn on this one.
Farmers make fuck all money, unless they're really big. Supermarkets and people's incomes make sure of that, but farmers tend to not give a single fuck about anybody but themselves, so I find it hard to muster a fuck for them.
It's a topic that should be discussed but I really can't be arsed, because, as per, the only thing that will happen is the rich will get richer, whilst swallowing up the small guy... Same as it ever was.

That's just not true at all. There are many wealthy farmers making well under £50k pa according to their accountants.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

A farming lady on the news this morning was making the point that just owning a couple of combine harvesters already gives you £1m in "assets", but it's not as if you can easily liquidate that (or continue to do the job without them).

 

[Saul Goodman]

Yeah, I mean, when those who can't afford it sell up, it's not like it's going to anyone other than the rich who buy.

If you're stupid enough to want to get into farming, it's incredibly hard.

Unless you add "Artisanal" to the name of your farm, and sell your produce to people with strange beards, at 5x the price it can be purchased elsewhere, I doubt you could viably buy into farming. In order to make money at it you have to inherit land that your ancestors stole.

 

[Bingoman]

All them tractors, eh?

View attachment 451705

Best keep away from those websites

 

[furluxor]

Big if there. Not wishing to align with the vile McTernan, but he made the valid point that when the British state declared that coal-mines were "uneconomic" they were shut. If and when we see farms shut, abandoned and re-wilded then, and only then will I buy into the notion that farming is "financially unviable". Oh, and when the rural bosses stop driving around in top of the range fuck-off Merc SUVs.

I don't know for sure (it is a rather tedious subject), but my hunch is that what UnderOpenSky said is correct. I often disagree with Bio-Waste Spreader from the Eye, but when they complain about smaller farms struggling to get by, and a gradual consolidation in the hands of the rich, it sounds plausible to me. Same thing is happening in my home country. The end result is not rewilding, but more food imports and land owners with no connection to the land.

 

[brogdale]

A farming lady on the news this morning was making the point that just owning a couple of combine harvesters already gives you £1m in "assets", but it's not as if you can easily liquidate that (or continue to do the job without them).

If you actually own "a couple of combine harvesters" the land area of your farm would mean that you almost certainly be way above the £3m worth asset exemption. In others words extremely wealthy and have benefitted from massive CAP subsidies for decades.

 

[Saul Goodman]

A farming lady on the news this morning was making the point that just owning a couple of combine harvesters already gives you £1m in "assets", but it's not as if you can easily liquidate that (or continue to do the job without them).

It must be hard, having so much land that one combine harvester isn't enough.

 

[Elpenor]

A farming lady on the news this morning was making the point that just owning a couple of combine harvesters already gives you £1m in "assets", but it's not as if you can easily liquidate that (or continue to do the job without them).

It would be a big farm that owned a combine let alone two, rather than lease them, or use a contractor for a few days surely

if you have two combines (book value £1 million so we are led to believe), then you would surely be sweating that asset constantly (perhaps leasing it out to neighbours)

In which case your business is as much leasing machinery as it is farming surely, and why should a leasing business be given an inheritance tax opt out?

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Unless you add "Artisanal" to the name of your farm, and sell your produce to people with strange beards, at 5x the price it can be purchased elsewhere, I doubt you could viably buy into farming. In order to make money at it you have to inherit land that your ancestors stole.

Well yes, but first you need the land. And without totally derailing this thread, it does cost a lot more to use more sustainable farming methods, and it's a massive struggle on a small scale, even if you manage to sell direct to the consumer.

I mean I shop at Aldi, but if I won the lottery I'd grow a strange beard, shop at farmers markets and want to know the name of the cow my steak came from.

 

[chilango]

• Alan Partridge : You farmers, you don't like outsiders, do you? You like to stick to your own.
  Peter Baxendale Thomas : What do you mean by that?
  Alan Partridge : I've seen the big-eared boys on farms.
  Peter Baxendale Thomas : Oh, for goodness' sake.
  Alan Partridge : If you see a lovely field with a family having a picnic, and there's a nice pond in it, you fill in the pond with concrete, you plough the family into the field, you blow up the tree, and use the leaves to make a dress for your wife who's also your brother.

 

[brogdale]

Whingeing tory fuckers...

 

[iona]

That's just not true at all. There are many wealthy farmers making well under £50k pa according to their accountants.

And plenty more who aren't wealthy by any means. Not sure why that's so hard to get your head around.

Thousands of children from farming families met the criteria for this year's return to school grants, just to give one example.
RABI return to school grants criteria and info

 

[brogdale]

And plenty more who aren't wealthy by any means. Not sure why that's so hard to get your head around.

Thousands of children from farming families met the criteria for this year's return to school grants, just to give one example.
RABI return to school grants criteria and info

Not hard at all; you are right, of course, that there are rich and poor as in all walks of life. But if a cohort are moaning about having to pay half the IHT, above £3m, that anybody else is expected to pay, I don't think their kids require grants.

 

[Saul Goodman]

And plenty more who aren't wealthy by any means. Not sure why that's so hard to get your head around.

Thousands of children from farming families met the criteria for this year's return to school grants, just to give one example.
RABI return to school grants criteria and info

I reckon there are far more poor farmers than rich ones.
Unfortunately, it seems the only the solution is selling your land to to someone who's so rich that the government has deemed them exempt from taxes.

 

[Cerv]

the exemption from IHT has in recent years led to lots of rich people buying up farmland as a means to pass on wealth untaxed. this has driven up the price of farmland, pricing out genuine owner-farmers.
farmers complain.
now the IHT exemption is being reduced. can expect the upward pressure on farmland prices to ease off after that.
farmers complain.
there's no pleasing some people.