The job hunting support thread

[Helen Back]

Yes but does anybody here NOT have a degree but has still found regular admin type work through LinkedIn or that LI has helped them in some way under those circumstances?

 

[weltweit]

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. After a very promising interview which we thought was in the bag, Himself just got rejected for being too experienced. Most rejection emails say he's not experienced enough. (Facilities assistant/ facilities management/ facilities anything). Checking today on indeed, we find he's applied for over 300 jobs. Gone to interviews, we reckon about 5-ish. Our strategies aren't working. Go for entry level, not working. Go for apprenticeships, not working.
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Hi Helen,

When I was last looking I developed two CVs, one for the more senior jobs where I threw everything at it, and one for the more junior jobs where I was also applying. Well it was custom for each application actually.

One example of the difference was in the experienced CV I put my job title XYZ Manager (which I was), while in the CV for more junior roles I called myself XYZ Executive.

300 applications is a lot, how much time is being spent on the custom covering letter and customising the CV for each application? I had 22 interviews last job hunt and applied to 188 vacancies. It strikes me your hit rate is on the low side if it is 5 interviews from 300 applications (is it 5 or 50 odd?). It suggests to me that you could benefit from more work on custom CVs and covering letters.

There are job clubs you can join, perhaps there are some in your neighbourhood. Often they will give CV advice free of charge, also there is the The National Careers Service which are often attached to a job centre and you can get free careers advice and CV advice. They are free to use, and you don't have to be signed on.

eta: if you had 50 interviews then your CV and covering letters are probably good, but if you had 50 interviews and no job it suggests your interview technique could do with tweaking.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. After a very promising interview which we thought was in the bag, Himself just got rejected for being too experienced. Most rejection emails say he's not experienced enough. (Facilities assistant/ facilities management/ facilities anything). Checking today on indeed, we find he's applied for over 300 jobs. Gone to interviews, we reckon about 5-ish. Our strategies aren't working. Go for entry level, not working. Go for apprenticeships, not working.

We're living off our savings and they're running out. We should be applying for Universal Credit but that takes 12 weeks to come through and we don't want to go back to our lives being controlled by what amounts to the Government. Plus, "I could in a job, soon, so no, we probably won't need to go on it".

So what's an easy to get into admin job in London that he can easily get while looking for real work? Data entry these days seems to require 2 years' experience which he doesn't have. In my day as a data entry bod (late '90s, early 2000s) you could walk into a DE job no problem. He's joined agencies and not heard anything from them.

So, two questions from this rant:
How long does it take from applying for Universal Credit to getting paid first?
What's an easy to get into admin-type job in London? (not "easy job", "easy to get into")

missed this at the time, so a few thoughts -

would say if in doubt, claim the benefits you're entitled to.

it's worth pitching a job application around the level of the job being offered. from what you've said here (and i may of course be reading it wrong) sounds like he has some experience doing one sort of thing but is applying for basic admin.

i assume that jobs in his area of work aren't easy to come by (or he wants to get out of that line), but gut feeling is he'd do better putting a decent application together for a few jobs in that field rather than going scattergun and sending off a generic CV to loads of things.

since the job centres now expect you to spend a lot of time applying for stuff, employers generally get a heck of a lot of applications for most things and the initial stages are more about 'getting the numbers down'

generally speaking, employers want someone who has done their sort of job before and doesn't have much in the way of aspirations beyond it (employers often aren't interested in developing people except those that join as management trainees - if you have a 'fast track' system, then that means you need a slow track / siding for the high flyers to be fast tracked past.)

and unless it's clearly a temp job, they don't want someone who (as they see it) only wants the job as a stop-gap before they find something better, as they think they will then have to go through the time and cost of hiring again in a few months.

there is an art in tailoring an application / CV to what employer says they are looking for (some organisations are better than others at making it clear what they are looking for) - this may involve a bit of 'dumbing down' or thinking about how experience / skills in one job could relate to the job you're applying for. there's a limit how far you should go in dumbing down - outright lying about qualifications (either leaving them out or putting in qualifications you don't have) can be dodgy and result in getting sacked if you get found out after you've started somewhere.

public sector jobs tend to be more 'competency based' rather than looking at CV and making assumptions about what it all means, as in you need to explain on the application and / or at interview what you have done in the past (and caring / study / voluntary stuff may be as relevant as paid employment) and giving examples (at interviews, the questions will often be along the lines of 'give an example of a time you did X', where X is something - either a specific technical task or an ability, e.g. 'an example of a time you provided good customer service' - these skills / abilities / bits of experience should all be listed in the person specification.) some people don't get that you need to go in to reasonable detail in the 'supporting statement' bit of a public sector application and address each point in the person specification.

May be worth investigating what national careers service can offer - it is there for people of all ages (when i left school, the local authority careers service only dealt with people under a certain age)

 

[Helen Back]

Some very wise words in these last two posts, both very much appreciated. However, he's already tried most of the advice given or come to the same conclusions himself and still no joy after (revised figure after checking our records) around 600(!) job applications. The problem seems to be that that although there are more vacancies in London there are also more applicants. And there's always going to be someone with more recent experience and better qualifications, some young graduate who can walk into any job they choose. Ah, well. We may yet still get that one call, that one interview, that one acceptance before our UC application kicks in...

 

[weltweit]

Helen Back yes, I found job hunting in the SE a pain for the same reason. For the jobs I was applying for, I was a good candidate but I was usually pipped at the post by someone who for some odd reason or another they thought was just slightly more suitable for the role than I was. I used to get to the last 2 quite often, but then just not quite win the prize.

And I struggled at the more junior roles also, I was regularly told I could do the bosses job and was therefore not suitable for the junior role, despite serious dumbing down of my CV.

It does seem like you have been relentless with your applications, which is the only way to be, for me the money ran out and I had to leave the SE, eventually getting a junior job in the sticks. There is however something great about doing a junior job - which is there is hardly any stress.

There is hope, keep on being relentless and be ruthless in tweaking your strategy where you are not winning through.

ETA I do recommend all the interview training and rehearsals you can get, the organisations I mentioned above can help with that, it certainly helped me. For example, have you got a TMAY ?

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Hmm.

Looks like I'm about to be back on this thread - fairly major balls up in new job. Not that I see it as entirely my fault that I didn't manage to deal with a backlog of nearly 6 months since my predecessor left, absence of data to base anything new on, MD changing his mind several times about what was wanted, and so on.

Gut feeling at the moment is that it would be marginally better for me to resign than to get turfed out (still within probationary period so not a lot I could do about it)

Any ideas on how to spin this sort of situation with potential new employers? Guess it's not going to be worth trying for much more than agency admin stuff, and I wasn't very successful with that a few years ago...

 

[weltweit]

Puddy_Tat, my understanding is that if you resign it is much harder to get benefits.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Puddy_Tat, my understanding is that if you resign it is much harder to get benefits.

I'm aware of that - although being sacked (rather than redundancy) isn't much better

 

[MickiQ]

If you've been there less than 2 years you can be pretty much fired for wearing too brightly coloured a shirt these days and lots of people get fired for all sorts of spurious reasons before they reach the magic 2 years and acquire some rights.
The upside is that since it's so common not many question it, so just tell any potential new employer that your current one told you they didn't think you were working out and don't elaborate. Let them fill in the blanks, chances are they'll reckon it was cost-cutting which it mostly is.
It has happened to my son and more than one of his mates and it didn't make it any harder to find another job (and companies wonder why the young have no loyalty these days)
Most places don't give references these days either they just confirm people worked there from when to whenever

 

[Helen Back]

Well, good news is Himself finally got a job! It's a temp job for 3 months which is a start and a good foot in the door. He started two weeks ago and will be paid weekly so he should be getting paid tomorrow (Friday) just as our savings run out and just in time to cover bills coming out of our account on Monday. Phew!

Or not...

The problem is they haven't sorted out his pay, yet. Apparently agencies do don't paper timesheets faxed through to the office anymore. No, they set you up with an app and you have to be given a login. Which they haven't done, yet. So tomorrow, unless a miracle happens, he's not going to get paid. And if he doesn't get paid tomorrow then we'll have to wait until the next Friday. So the last of our money will come out of our account and we could be in even further trouble with the rent than we already are and the letting agent may start proceedings to get us evicted and... Lovely.

Anybody know any ways to get cash in hand asap?

 

[Casual Observer]

I don't often venture this way so forgive me if this has been covered before. I punted my CV at five 'free' CV review places yesterday. You submit your CV online and they give some free general advice in the hope you'll then pay them to rewrite your CV for you (at which point you ignore them). I suspect it's software rather than a person that does the free review in most cases. Anyway, Professional CV, Cover Letter and LinkedIn Writing Services - CV Services UK | CV Knowhow was quite useful. Unlike the other places, they give their free initial advice by e-mail so you don't have to talk to anyone. They reckon I'm going wrong in the following areas:-

1. Bullet points are good but I'd used too many of them (3 sections of bullet points on my 2-page CV).

2. I come across as a 'doer' rather than an 'achiever' so need to replace 'passive language' with 'action language' where possible.

3. Mentioning 'references are available on request' or listing references in full on the CV is redundant. Recruiters expect you to have this info to hand anyway so you're stating the obvious.

4. Until now I've always submitted my CV in PDF but this place reckons Word is preferable. Apparently most recruiters use Applicant Tracking Software which helps sift out the unsuitable CVs and some older versions don't recognise PDF.

5. Even though my PDF was only two pages, it was in the top 2% by file size (752 KB) so I should compress it if I continue with the PDF format.

6. The overall appearance of my CV is 'visually uneven' and 'not polished' although they didn't say how I should rectify this. I'd formatted it myself rather than using a template so might look at that.

They said a few other vague things as well as well as giving a few compliments. Overall, their assessments wasn't nearly as bland as I was expecting even it is is software rather than a person.

 

[weltweit]

Hi Casual Observer, most of that advice seems sound. And I was always tempted to submit CVs in pdf form because that way they are harder for people to mess about with. However, recruitment companies scan word CVs to select the ones they want to use (they can't scan pdfs in the same way) and more importantly when recruitment agencies submit your CV to potential employers they want to be able to replace your name and contact information with their own to guarantee that their employers will come back to them and not attempt to avoid their fee by going directly to you.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

5. Even though my PDF was only two pages, it was in the top 2% by file size (752 KB) so I should compress it if I continue with the PDF format.

if it's just 2 pages of text, not sure how its doing that unless you're using loads of weird fonts (not recommended) and embedding them.

and if you're including a photo of yourself, this generally isn't recommended unless you're an actor or something like that. not in the uk at least

(beware of cv advice from other countries where "the done thing" is different)

 

[Casual Observer]

Hi Casual Observer, most of that advice seems sound. And I was always tempted to submit CVs in pdf form because that way they are harder for people to mess about with. However, recruitment companies scan word CVs to select the ones they want to use (they can't scan pdfs in the same way) and more importantly when recruitment agencies submit your CV to potential employers they want to be able to replace your name and contact information with their own to guarantee that their employers will come back to them and not attempt to avoid their fee by going directly to you.

That part of the advice did strike me as fishy although the online portal of one direct employer did reject my PDF CV and insist on Word. I wouldn't knowingly touch a recruitment agency with a barge pole, by the way. The outfit that reviewed my CV seem to make their money from rewriting CVs, cover letters and linkedin profiles. They might have a connection to a recruitment agency but it wasn't explicitly stated.

 

[Casual Observer]

if it's just 2 pages of text, not sure how its doing that unless you're using loads of weird fonts (not recommended) and embedding them.

and if you're including a photo of yourself, this generally isn't recommended unless you're an actor or something like that. not in the uk at least

(beware of cv advice from other countries where "the done thing" is different)

Oh no, I'd never include a photo. No weird fonts on the CV either. The file size might be due to me farting about with the spacing between lines to get the text fitting just so. I'll have a closer look at that.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

word / excel can sometimes generate a load of invisible crap.

i tend to do line spacing by making the blank lines 8 (or 6 or whatever) point rather than sodding about with the formatting options

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Following on from my post about a month ago - the 'conversation' I was expecting didn't happen, as I managed to salvage something just about acceptable from the situation then, and I guess that if I had left then, there would not have been anyone else even to try to deliver something else this month (again, it's late and not quite what was wanted but is better than nothing - having nothing would be a disaster.)

It's fairly obvious that what the job needed was someone with substantial experience of using specific software at reasonably advanced level. No doubt I might get there in a year or two, but a couple of day's training in the very basics was never going to do it. (I had made it clear at the interview that while I'd done this sort of job, I'd never touched this particular software package. I was led to believe that others in the team could do it, so wasn't that concerned, but i have found out they had never touched the more complex and important bits of it.)

I'm not sure whether organisation were a bit naive about what was needed for the job, or whether i was seen as a stop-gap who was better than not having anyone at the time.

I'm intending to start the wheels in motion about leaving this week - I'd rather do this before they do, and I don't see the point of staying put and looking for other jobs, as (quite apart from details like time, energy and ability to get days off for interview) being on 3 months notice, most places will want someone who can start soon.

Around the time I went for my current job, something similar (somewhere else) was advertised, I was offered the job, but current employer had offered first and was closer to home, so I said no thanks. They got a bit weird about it and didn't seem to want to take no for an answer.

They have now re-advertised the same job and I'm thinking of getting in touch. Obviously I've nothing to lose, even if they tell me to sod off, but any ideas how to? Just pitching letter and CV as if nothing had happened doesn't seem right. Any bright ideas?

 

[MickiQ]

Pitch letter and CV as if nothing has happened, Them getting weird is more likely to be down to your interpretation of the situation rather than theirs.
Do you even know if they remember you? If by some unlikely happenstance they really did take it personally then you've no chance anyway so nothing to lose (and they shouldn't be interviewing people) But if you're suitable enough for them to offer you a job last time then why shouldn't they re-interview you?. They obviously still need someone and you'll do.

 

[LeytonCatLady]

Asking the following on behalf of a mate.

He started claiming Universal Credit about a year ago after a pay cut and decrease in hours, and says his coach has always been very hands-off. For example, because he makes a big effort with the jobhunting, he's allowed to come in for his meetings fortnightly rather than weekly. Also, if the coach is on annual leave, he lets him come in when he's back, rather than giving it to another work coach.

When his UC meetings (known as work search reviews) are booked, he gets a text alert through to his phone which lets him know to check the appointment on his UC account. When he logged in, it always said underneath the arranged time and date: "This is to check you're doing all you can to find work, or earn more."
His next appointment is on 27 August, and the wording under it is a little different: "This is to check what you're doing to meet your commitments, and agree next steps to find work or increase your earnings."

It's still a work search review, so that's no different than his previous meetings. However, he's a bit worried by the difference in wording and that they might be going to get harder on him. He's already doing all he can to either increase his earnings or find a different job! We're curious if anyone else has noticed this, and whether it means a slightly more hardcore approach to the claimant, or if it just means the same thing with different wording? He's worried about asking the coach directly as he doesn't want to draw attention to himself unnecessarily.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can answer this.

ETA: Forgot to mention my friend suffers from anxiety and is likely to worry about things like this even more than most UC claimants (it's an anxious situation anyway).

 

[weltweit]

LeytonCatLady can your friend not phone his work coach and ask directly?

 

[LeytonCatLady]

LeytonCatLady can your friend not phone his work coach and ask directly?

He could send his coach a message through his UC account, but he's worried if he does that, the coach might think "Why's he asking?" and get ideas in his head to get "tougher" on him. I've told him I'm sure that won't be the case if the coach is reasonable, but his anxiety makes him overthink things. He showed me the appointment details today with the wording underneath, and to be perfectly honest it looks like something they send everyone, so it's probably just a change on the wording they use (I notice they've also changed the wording slightly on the payments section too from when I last claimed UC). But I've also let him know that if he needs someone to come with him for a bit of support on the 27th, I'm happy to, even if I'm only allowed to wait outside.

 

[muscovyduck]

He could send his coach a message through his UC account, but he's worried if he does that, the coach might think "Why's he asking?" and get ideas in his head to get "tougher" on him. I've told him I'm sure that won't be the case if the coach is reasonable, but his anxiety makes him overthink things. He showed me the appointment details today with the wording underneath, and to be perfectly honest it looks like something they send everyone, so it's probably just a change on the wording they use (I notice they've also changed the wording slightly on the payments section too from when I last claimed UC). But I've also let him know that if he needs someone to come with him for a bit of support on the 27th, I'm happy to, even if I'm only allowed to wait outside.

He doesn't have to ask in a direct way - he could phrase it as: if he should be preparing to bring different evidence with him because the wording is different this time so he just thought he'd double check? Like he's trying to be helpful rather than on the defensive.

I had plenty of times where the system was hostile but the work coaches weren't so it probably will be fine but still worth getting as much info in advance about whether this appointment is a problem or not

Edited for clarity

 

[LeytonCatLady]

He doesn't have to ask in a direct way - he could phrase it as: if he should be preparing to bring different evidence with him because the wording is different this time so he just thought he'd double check? Like he's trying to be helpful rather than on the defensive.

I had plenty of times where the system was hostile but the work coaches weren't so it probably will be fine but still worth getting as much info in advance about whether this appointment is a problem or not

Edited for clarity

That's a good idea, I'll pass that on to him. Thanks!

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Pitch letter and CV as if nothing has happened, Them getting weird is more likely to be down to your interpretation of the situation rather than theirs.
Do you even know if they remember you? If by some unlikely happenstance they really did take it personally then you've no chance anyway so nothing to lose (and they shouldn't be interviewing people) But if you're suitable enough for them to offer you a job last time then why shouldn't they re-interview you?. They obviously still need someone and you'll do.

thanks

sent new application in 2 weeks ago. have not even had a 'no thank you'.

it did get weird - i replied fairly promptly to the offer and said words to the effect of 'no thanks, in other circumstances i'd be happy to take it but i've already been offered something else and said yes to them', they responded with 'great, we'll get the draft contract off to you', then after I said no thanks again, they got back to me about 3 times wanting me to change my mind.

anyone tried getting agency admin sort of work lately? (guess that's all i can realisticly aim at once i've agreed exit from current job - the current emergency should be about settled by the end of this week which is going to be the best time to quit) - i wasn't very successful in pursuit of this a few years back...

 

[likesfish]

After nearly two years of being fucked about one way or the other finally have a start date with the prison service !
Going from min wage to a decent paypacket with benefits will be such a shock but in a good way

 

[Puddy_Tat]

another 2 weeks - not even a 'sod off' from the above mentioned job.

working on an application at the moment, and again trying to think of a positive way to describe the huge mistake that is my current job.

blargh.

 

[muscovyduck]

Think I'm sorted getting the bills paid in the short term but when I was in the process of sorting myself out with work, I got in contact with an organisation who'd offered me £xyz for a days work... turns out they meant £xyz for the worker to pay them??? Horrifying, the worst part is I genuinely can't tell if they did this deliberately hoping someone would pay up after the training we all did or if it was miscommunication

 

[a_chap]

After being made redundant 18 months ago I finally decided this week to look for a job.

On Tuesday I spotted a job, sent a *very* brief CV, half an hour later I had a phone call from the agency would I be available for an initial chat via Skype Weds afternoon. Did that. Have just had a phone call asking to attend an interview tomorrow.

Cannot make tomorrow (have a prior commitment with he wife) so it's been arranged for Tuesday.

I suddenly find myself unexpectedly rather nervous I haven't had an interview in nearly 25 years...

Edited to add: Damn! Has just occurred to me that I'll have to buy a suit. Make a good impression and all.

 

[Treacle Toes]

After being made redundant 18 months ago I finally decided this week to look for a job.

On Tuesday I spotted a job, sent a *very* brief CV, half an hour later I had a phone call from the agency would I be available for an initial chat via Skype Weds afternoon. Did that. Have just had a phone call asking to attend an interview tomorrow.

Cannot make tomorrow (have a prior commitment with he wife) so it's been arranged for Tuesday.

I suddenly find myself unexpectedly rather nervous I haven't had an interview in nearly 25 years...

Edited to add: Damn! Has just occurred to me that I'll have to buy a suit. Make a good impression and all.

Is it a suited environment/industry? If not you don't need more than a shirt and trousers surely?

ETA: Good luck with the interview.

 

[a_chap]

I'll ask the question, but unless they specifically say "No suits" then I'll wear one to the interview.

I take the view that I have to look smart at least one time