SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
A protest march possibly. I don't think they were planning to bring tanks.
The Islamic state
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
A protest march possibly. I don't think they were planning to bring tanks.
OK, the context you used implied direct military conflict.
Perhaps I misunderstood.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Yeah sorry, I was talking about them going to war with Turkey. Probably I could've just said 'go to war with Turkey'
Yes. I think the term is best reserved for the Jewish holocaust, in order to preserve its unique quality.
Not gambit that I´ve ever used before.
But I will use it for you. You do seem to be a racist, because you always see Turkey as the villain in every historical conflict.
You´re not alone though. Turks are the only ethnic group against which racism is considered acceptable today. People such as yourself, who could not find Turkey on a map of the world--who could not find the world on a map of the world--are predisposed against Turkey in every case.
We´re against it.
coley
Well-Known Member
Not at all, stop being so self pitying.
The PKK denies them that right.
Seriously though. I don´t say you´re a racist of the Jeff Robinson ilk. But I do think you´ve unconsciously imbibed a particular image of Turks and Turkey, just from growing up as a rather unreflective type in modern Western culture.
And it is indeed acceptable to be racist against Turks. I see it every day. Arabs too, but to a lesser extent. I have a theory about why this occurs, but perhaps it is best left for another thread.
coley
Well-Known Member
Aye that would suit your line of reasoning nicely, wouldn't it?
RAPHAEL LEMKIN & THE NUREMBURG TRIALS
The word genocide owes its existence to Raphael Lemkin, a Polish-Jewish lawyer who fled the Nazi occupation of Poland and arrived in the United States in 1941. As a boy, Lemkin had been horrified when he learned of the Turkish massacre of hundreds of thousands of Armenians during World War I. As an adult, he set out to come up with a term to describe Nazi crimes against European Jews during World War II, and to enter that term into the world of international law in the hopes of preventing and punishing such horrific crimes against innocent people. In 1944, he coined the term “genocide” by combining genos, the Greek word for race or tribe, with the Latin suffix cide (“to kill”).
Disagreeing that they should be defined as genocide. For reasons stated above.
You confuse me sometimes.
What are you trying to say here? Do you consider Raphael Lemkin an absolute authority? Or what?
Explain yourself.
Well precisely.
We should also differentiate betwen "the Kurds" and "the PKK." Every right thinking person must support the Kurds. But no right thinking person who is not a total ignoramus can support the PKK.
I meant to ask you last night but I got distracted away.
Are you being serious here? I find it hard to believe, but I suppose anything´s possible. If you´re serious, you should watch it. It confirms my point about anti-Turkish racism.
coley
Well-Known Member
If it's racist to be dismayed that a country with a pretty terrible track record towards it ethnic minorities but who was showing signs of trying to improve that record now seems to be slipping back into its bad old ways, then yes, I suppose I'm as guilty as charged
In much the same way as I'm a racist for being disturbed at the rise of the far right in parts of Germany and France.
Well precisely again.
Why anyone expects Turkey to chuck a lighted match on the pile of tinderwood sitting in their backyard is beyond me.
No, it´s not actually beyond me. But it is ridiculous.
That´s putting it mildly.
However a more immediate danger facing the Kurds is what will happen to them in Turkey should their leaders follow the insane path--loudly advocated by Butchersapron from his armchair--of attempting to "set Turkey ablaze." That would set the scene for massacre, and the PKK won´t be the ones to suffer.
It´s about trillion times more complicated than you think.
First of all, you can hardly blame the Turkish Republic for crimes committed by the Ottomans.
Next, the Ottomans are not co-terminus with Turks. Most of the massacres of Armenians were carried out by Kurds, for example. Just for one example. An example of the vast historical complexity of which you (without meaning to offend) obviously know less than zero.
I´d suggest that the ethical course for you to follow is to suppress your racist impulses until you´ve read up on the subject a bit. I suggest that you start with Norman Stone´s biography of Ataturk. Get back to me once you´ve had a look at that and we can talk properly.
This is the first bit of sense you´ve spoken in this discussion.
Trouble is, it contradicts everything you´ve said previously. The regional superpower--now but far more in the near future--is Turkey. The West alienates Turkey at its peril.
The PKK have been fighting a war against Turkey for 20 years.
But you´re right--they did know what the consequences would be for their people. And they didn´t care. In fact they welcomed those consequences, because they solidified their own power.
That´s the kind of people they are.
It can´t have been both, now can it? Ottomans and Europeans tended to disagree about such things, often quite violently. One such disagreement is known as "World War One."
Sorry if I seem patronizing. You´re not the worst offender here by any means. But really, the collective ignorance on display here is quite shocking.
The truth is that the current map of the middle east was drawn up by Britain and France, with no local involvement whatsoever. That´s why people want to change it.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
The UK has been dragged kicking and screaming to admit some of the shit it did in its past but we don't jail for pointing out some of the skeletons in our closet and are strong enough to allow referendums on independce.
Turkey doesn't allow either of those options.
Re Cyprus they did the right thing the Cypriot Greeks were getting ready to go full batshit ethnic cleansing
Turkey doesn't allow either of those options.
Re Cyprus they did the right thing the Cypriot Greeks were getting ready to go full batshit ethnic cleansing
I agree that free discussion of the Armenian massacres should be permitted. And it is permitted, by and large, these days.
But an independent Kurdistán within the current borders of Turkey is completely impossible. What´s more, the PKK knew it to be impossible when they launched the armed struggle 20 years ago.
Re Cyprus they did the right thing the Cypriot Greeks were getting ready to go full batshit ethnic cleansing
They were doing a bit more than "getting ready," they were full-on doing it! They were also demanding enosis with a Fascist regime. Neither of those facts is well known in the UK, thank you for pointing them out.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
Sorry didn't know the enosis name.
Served in Cyprus for best part of two years got loads of the evil Turks invading killing everyone in 74 asking where the Turks went from the derelict villages we used for street fighting practice deep silence apprantly
The preserved mosque in one of the villages is the only mosque left .
Think really nasty shit went down UK forces sheltered some refugees there was a huge barbed wire compound of Turkish Cypriot cars left to rot on the garrison.
Served in Cyprus for best part of two years got loads of the evil Turks invading killing everyone in 74 asking where the Turks went from the derelict villages we used for street fighting practice deep silence apprantly
The preserved mosque in one of the villages is the only mosque left .
Think really nasty shit went down UK forces sheltered some refugees there was a huge barbed wire compound of Turkish Cypriot cars left to rot on the garrison.
coley
Well-Known Member
No, I think Turkey has been trying to have the best of worlds but has plumped for islamification, interesting times ahead.
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Although the Holocaust Educational Trust, for an example, argue the opposite. Iirc they do refer to what happened in Rwanda (and elsewhere) as genocide and (again iirc) argue it's important to do so.
The Holocaust is the unique designation not genocide.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The islamists are in power now, but secularism is still a strong force in Turkey, particularly in the army. Those who were in power haven't changed their minds - they've just lost power to the AKP, whose social base among poorer sections of society is enough to win them elections. This study's abstract gives a different slant. Perhaps someone living in Turkey might be able to comment. It understands the AKP's success not in terms of its Islamism, but in terms of its appeal to the concerns of its social base.
Sounds like a rather similar story to that of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Best understood as a social phenomenon not by looking at the Islamism, but by looking at all the other things it does to appeal to its base. The Islamists get into power almost by default because the parties of the elite, in Turkey's case the secular Kemalists, are so bloody awful.
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