The Islamic state

[coley]

The PKK is a Stalinist organization using Maoist tactics. Most Kurds understandably want nothing to do with them.

You keep saying this but offer no proof, most Kurdish factions (including the PKK) have tried to treat with theTurkish state and have been led down the garden path.
Did you bother to read up on the US treatment of the native Americans?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Fair do,s but I think the EU was prepared to give them a chance.

They'd have had to have brought in EU-style border controls. Who knows if the vast numbers of refugees currently in Turkey would have made it across such a border. On the evidence of the EU letting thousands of refugees drown in the Mediterranean, and indeed causing or directly contributing to many of those deaths, it seems unlikely.

 

[coley]

Yes, they met requirement after requirement. They turned themselves inside out meeting ever-more demanding requirements for about 20 years. No sooner did they meet one than another was invented. They finally threw their hands up in disgust and gave up when they were asked to confess to genocide.

You must admit, that´s a pretty big ask. I don´t think many countries would be willing to meet that particular requirement.

Aye whey, the Armenian genocide didn't really happen did it?

 

[phildwyer]

Aye whey, the Armenian genocide didn't really happen did it?

It depends what you mean by "genocide." To me, that term implies an analogy with the fate of European Jewry in WW2. There was certainly no comparable event in Turkey.

 

[coley]

They'd have had to have brought in EU-style border controls. Who knows if the vast numbers of refugees currently in Turkey would have made it across such a border. On the evidence of the EU letting thousands of refugees drown in the Mediterranean, and indeed causing or directly contributing to many of those deaths, it seems unlikely.

Not quite with you here, why do they try to cross over water, who is blocking their path across land borders?

 

[phildwyer]

You keep saying this but offer no proof, most Kurdish factions (including the PKK) have tried to treat with theTurkish state and have been led down the garden path.

In reality the Turkish state has offered numerous concessions in reponse to peaceful pressure from Kurdish organizations. Much to the disgust of the PKK, who have continually made deliberately impossible demands in order to perpetuate the war, which is the only circumstance in which they can thrive.

Did you bother to read up on the US treatment of the native Americans?

Yes. What similarities do you perceive between the two cases?

 

[coley]

It depends what you mean by "genocide." To me, that term implies an analogy with the fate of European Jewry in WW2. There was certainly no comparable event in Turkey.

Ah, so Turkey didn't kill as many or murder on an industrial scale, makes them,if not the good guys, just the bad lads as opposed to being guilty of genocide, should I mention the Greeks here?

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I've followed Butcher's lead and put Dwyer on ignore. This thread really looks a lot better now - it's something I'd throughly recommend to anybody not interested in bluster and bullshit.

 

[coley]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/

In reality the Turkish state has offered numerous concessions in reponse to peaceful pressure from Kurdish organizations. Much to the disgust of the PKK, who have continually made deliberately impossible demands in order to perpetuate the war, which is the only circumstance in which they can thrive.
Your just having a larf ere ain't you?

 

[8ball]

It depends what you mean by "genocide." To me, that term implies an analogy with the fate of European Jewry in WW2. There was certainly no comparable event in Turkey.

I think I read something about the Armenian genocide being instrumental in the coining of the term.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Not quite with you here, why do they try to cross over water, who is blocking their path across land borders?

Well in the case of migrants from east Africa, going over land would involve passing through Syria or Iraq, and quite possibly Israel which is not fond of African migrants. Established trafficking routes mostly go via Libya and Sudan.

A Syrian friend of mine walked to France from his home town after it was bombed by Assad's lot. He went the long way round via the Caucasus and Ukraine. It's partly a matter of which borders are easier to sneak across, and partly a matter of where there are trafficking operations able to help. And of course I use 'help' in the loosest possible sense, fleecing people for every penny they can get comes closer.

e2a: As far as I know the Greece/Turkey land border is not a great place to try and sneak across without paperwork.

 

[phildwyer]

Ah, so Turkey didn't kill as many or murder on an industrial scale, makes them,if not the good guys, just the bad lads as opposed to being guilty of genocide

The difference isn´t in the scale (although the scale was different), but in the circumstances. The massacres of Armenians took place during a civil war, in which Armenian armies also massacred Turkish civilians. The Jews of Europe had no army and had never harmed anybody.

See the difference?

should I mention the Greeks here?

That´s like saying "should I mention the Germans" to a Brit. What´s your point?

 

[coley]

I've followed Butcher's lead and put Dwyer on ignore. This thread really looks a lot better now - it's something I'd throughly recommend to anybody not interested in bluster and bullshit.

Aye, I can understand that, but highlighting PDs position does help illustrate Turkey's role in this?

 

[SpookyFrank]

I've followed Butcher's lead and put Dwyer on ignore. This thread really looks a lot better now - it's something I'd throughly recommend to anybody not interested in bluster and bullshit.

It does get confusing though. For a second there I was worried someone was accusing me of denying the Armenian genocide.

Just to be clear, I'm fairly certain the Armenian genocide happened, and also that it was a bad thing.

 

[coley]

The difference isn´t in the scale (although the scale was different), but in the circumstances. The massacres of Armenians took place during a civil war, in which Armenian armies also massacred Turkish civilians. The Jews of Europe had no army and had never harmed anybody.

See the difference?

No.



That´s like saying "should I mention the Germans" to a Brit. What´s your point?

The Germans had a lot to answer for, as, to some extent,do we, but we both admit it and do our level best to make sure we go forward and make sure it never happens again, Turkey, on the other hand?

 

[SpookyFrank]

The Germans have a lot to answer for, as, to some extent,do we, but we both admit it and do our level best to make sure we go forward and make sure it never happens again, Turkey, on the other hand?

And Japan, but that's a story for another day...

 

[phildwyer]

The Germans have a lot to answer for, as, to some extent,do we, but we both admit it and do our level best to make sure we go forward and make sure it never happens again, Turkey, on the other hand?

Turkey has never been accused of hiding anything about its wars with the Greeks.

Not to my knowledge anyway. Do you know better?

 

[phildwyer]

and quite possibly Israel which is not fond of African migrants.

That all depends.

 

[coley]

And Japan, but that's a story for another day...

Don't get me started

 

[phildwyer]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/

That links to an article on Arthur Gould, rugby fullback for Wales in the late ninteenth century.

Are the Turks to blame for him too?

 

[coley]

Turkey has never been accused of hiding anything about its wars with the Greeks.

Not to my knowledge anyway. Do you know better?

Of course not, its to busy denying the Armenian genocide, one genocide at a time, so to speak.

 

[coley]

That links to an article on Arthur Gould, rugby fullback for Wales in the late ninteenth century.

Are the Turks to blame for him too?

Probably

 

[phildwyer]

Of course not, its to busy denying the Armenian genocide, one genocide at a time, so to speak.

Hang on. So now you´re claiming a Greek genocide, as well as an Armenian genocide?

Is there anyone else you´d like to blame Turkey for genociding while you´re here? The Apache perhaps?

 

[coley]

Hang on. So now you´re claiming a Greek genocide, as well as an Armenian genocide?

Is there anyone else you´d like to blame Turkey for genociding while you´re here? The Apache perhaps?

Apache? so you have been looking up the reference I made?

 

[phildwyer]

Apache? so you have been looking up the reference I made?

Are you going to explain the parallel you see between the American Indians and the Kurds?

 

[coley]

Are you going to explain the parallel you see between the American Indians and the Kurds?

See if I can do a better link( not ower good at this stuff)
http://www.greek-genocide.org

 

[coley]

Are you going to explain the parallel you see between the American Indians and the Kurds?

Native Americans, do keep up.

 

[phildwyer]

Native Americans, do keep up.

That would be a "no" then.

Because there really is no parallel, is there? You just said the first thing that came into your head didn´t you?

But hey, don´t let that stop you. I´m sure you can think of a few more atrocities to pin on the Turks while you´re at it.

I suspect you were forced to watch Midnight Express at an early age.

 

[coley]

Hang on. So now you´re claiming a Greek genocide, as well as an Armenian genocide?

Is there anyone else you´d like to blame Turkey for genociding while you´re here? The Apache perhaps?

The demographic consequences of the Greek genocide are not objectively certain. The prewar population of Greeks was at least 2.5 million. Over the course of 1914 to 1923, about one million had migrated, some voluntarily but most under coercion. As many as 1.5 million Greeks died, either from massacre or exposure, although this figure is not positive. Presently, a miniscule Greek population remains in Turkey. Greek communities annually commemorate the genocide on September 14 in recognition of the Smyrna catastrophe.

And how long afore the same can be said of the Kurds?

 

[phildwyer]

The demographic consequences of the Greek genocide are not objectively certain. The prewar population of Greeks was at least 2.5 million. Over the course of 1914 to 1923, about one million had migrated, some voluntarily but most under coercion. As many as 1.5 million Greeks died, either from massacre or exposure, although this figure is not positive. Presently, a miniscule Greek population remains in Turkey. Greek communities annually commemorate the genocide on September 14 in recognition of the Smyrna catastrophe.

First of all, just as many Turks were killed by Greeks as vice versa.

But more important, you´re beginning to come off as a racist now. It sounds as though you´re trying to portray the Turks as a violent and predatory people, given to genociding their neighbors with no provocation.

If that´s your opinión, please say so. I´d like to know what I´m dealing with here.