The Islamic state

[Casually Red]

Please do, I'd really like to read that.

The thing is, no atheist or agnostic can really understand the motives that impel young men to give up promising futures in the West to join a far-away war, in which the chances of them getting killed must be extremely high, no matter how much success their army is having.

We tend to assume that they must be motivated by avarice or lust, because those are the only factors that motivate people in Western society. But we would be foolish to think that the rest of the world feels the same.

Muslims are plainly not being oppressed by Kurds Yazidis Turkmen villagers etc. its a free for all safari just a cheap holiday flight to Turkey away . Cynical greed and lust is just as much a factor in Saudi society as it is in western society..no matter how much religious flannel is used to give it legitimacy. Afterall thats were most of the women girls and boys the pious are selling into sexual slavery ...once theyve had ther own perks ...are being shipped to .

pimps and nonces with beards

 

[phildwyer]

far from trying to keep Turkey out of this war Erdogan has been up to his cynical bollocks in it from day one. His officials have been recorded inventing pretexts for intervention and theyve been actively assisting this and other groups for years . Erdogans sole aim is the removal of the Syrian government . Hes quite happy to intervene on that basis as long as hes sure the west will have his back .
Far from non intervention hes actively intervening on the jihadists side by preventing anyone crossing over to confront them . While for the past 3 years his borders have been wide open for the jihadists to come and go as they please . And much more than that ..theyve been equipped and facilitated all over the place by state actors..not least his state.
His preconditions for intervention are pretty clear..both the west and the kurds have to go on the offensive against Syria itself. An infinitely bigger sectarian bloodbath in other words. One hell be quite happy to play an active role in under the protection of the NATO umbrella. Until that happens hell take no action against his bearded proxies. Not unless the west cut him a very sweet deal indeed that makes it worth his while .

In other words, he's acting in the best interests of his country. Which is what he's supposed to do. Turkey has nothing to gain from a war against IS. But it has much to gain from the destruction of the PKK and Assad.

Is his policy ethical? Hell no. Is it effective realpolitik? Yep. It's hard to blame him for this really, since everyone else involved is playing the same game.

 

[phildwyer]

Muslims are plainly not being oppressed by Kurds Yazidis Turkmen villagers etc. its a free for all safari just a cheap holiday flight to Turkey away . Cynical greed and lust is just as much a factor in Saudi society as it is in western society..no matter how much religious flannel is used to give it legitimacy. Afterall thats were most of the women girls and boys the pious are selling into sexual slavery ...once theyve had ther own perks ...are being shipped to .

pimps and nonces with beards

You are making the most elementary mistake in warfare. You underestimate your opponent. That's what got us into this mess.

 

[Casually Red]

You are making the most elementary mistake in warfare. You underestimate your opponent. That's what got us into this mess.

what got us into this mess was western governments and ther middle eastern allies thinking this bunch of pimps extortionists and rapists could overthrow Syria and thereby arming them to the teeth and funding them with many millions. Their powers were grossly over estimated. Syrias resilience was grossly underestimated. Unable to do the original task they were given theyve now largely opted for much less formidable opponents .Thats created a pr nightmare for the west who now have to be seen to do something.
its a vastly inferior opponent theyre attacking here..as in many other cases . A lightly armed militia thats basically being blockaded by the Turks while they besiege them too .

 

[phildwyer]

this bunch of pimps extortionists and rapists

You'll never get anywhere while you imagine them in this way.

The reality is that they are fanatically committed to their ideology, and this is what motivates them.

If you really want to defeat them (or anybody), you must first understand their motivation.

 

[coley]

far from trying to keep Turkey out of this war Erdogan has been up to his cynical bollocks in it from day one. His officials have been recorded inventing pretexts for intervention and theyve been actively assisting this and other groups for years . Erdogans sole aim is the removal of the Syrian government . Hes quite happy to intervene on that basis as long as hes sure the west will have his back .
Far from non intervention hes actively intervening on the jihadists side by preventing anyone crossing over to confront them . While for the past 3 years his borders have been wide open for the jihadists to come and go as they please . And much more than that ..theyve been equipped and facilitated all over the place by state actors..not least his state.
His preconditions for intervention are pretty clear..both the west and the kurds have to go on the offensive against Syria itself. An infinitely bigger sectarian bloodbath in other words. One hell be quite happy to play an active role in under the protection of the NATO umbrella. Until that happens hell take no action against his bearded proxies. Not unless the west cut him a very sweet deal indeed that makes it worth his while .

In a nutshell,and understanding their motivation doesn't make a lot of difference, understanding their aims and objectives and who supports them does does.

 

[Casually Red]

You'll never get anywhere while you imagine them in this way.

The reality is that they are fanatically committed to their ideology, and this is what motivates them.

If you really want to defeat them (or anybody), you must first understand their motivation.

the reality is theyre heavily engaged in rape extortion and sexual slavery including that of minors on an industrial scale. As much as it annoys you to have that pointed out . Their ideology permits and encourages it . You seem to fundamentally misunderstand that rotten ideology and equate those aspects of it with some kind of weakness that only westerners and seculars are afflicted by. So you want that aspect whitewashed.Your understanding of them is verging on the infantile.
The people wth them have a variety of motivations. The Saddamist generals who plan the military logistics of their assaults can certainly be weaned away from them..as can the vast bul of Iraqs sunns .
its not their ideologcal commtment whch is giving them their strength but the assets and assistance others have been providing to them . Blockading the kurds in the face of a potential genocide is all part of that.

 

[cantsin]

You'll never get anywhere while you imagine them in this way.

The reality is that they are fanatically committed to their ideology, and this is what motivates them.

If you really want to defeat them (or anybody), you must first understand their motivation.

true, unfortunately

 

[quiquaquo]

Meanwhile in Tehran fundamentalism has produced this: http://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2014/10/06/foto/rich_kids_of_tehran-97489295/1/?ref=HRESS-10#1

 

[phildwyer]

In a nutshell,and understanding their motivation doesn't make a lot of difference, understanding their aims and objectives and who supports them does does.

Their aims, objectives and sources of support are all determined by their ideology.

 

[Casually Red]

In a nutshell,and understanding their motivation doesn't make a lot of difference, understanding their aims and objectives and who supports them does does.

yup..up until 3 years ago their loony ideology had them totally isolated and barely functional. Other factors ...namely their access to state assistance made them an attractive prospect for a wide variety of people who dont or barely adhere to it .Far from an ideology attracting recruits a combination of externally provided assets resources and marriages of convenience has permitted them absorb a much wider range of recruits than the other outfits . Along with basic intimidation of other insurgents and gangsters . Join us or die can be quite a persuasive argument when your opponent has tanks artillery unlimited finance and an array of fancy advanced weaponry.

 

[phildwyer]

the reality is theyre heavily engaged in rape extortion and sexual slavery including that of minors on an industrial scale. As much as it annoys you to have that pointed out . Their ideology permits and encourages it . You seem to fundamentally misunderstand that rotten ideology

It's true. I'm fairly ignorant on the subject of ideology. I must read some books about it.

its not their ideologcal commtment whch is giving them their strength

Yes it is.

You seem to leap from your dislike of their ideology to the conclusion that, because it is so horrible, it could not possibly be inspiring people to fight and die for it. You are profoundly mistaken.

 

[butchersapron]

the reality is theyre heavily engaged in rape extortion and sexual slavery including that of minors on an industrial scale. As much as it annoys you to have that pointed out . Their ideology permits and encourages it . You seem to fundamentally misunderstand that rotten ideology and equate those aspects of it with some kind of weakness that only westerners and seculars are afflicted by. So you want that aspect whitewashed.Your understanding of them is verging on the infantile.
The people wth them have a variety of motivations. The Saddamist generals who plan the military logistics of their assaults can certainly be weaned away from them..as can the vast bul of Iraqs sunns .
its not their ideologcal commtment whch is giving them their strength but the assets and assistance others have been providing to them . Blockading the kurds in the face of a potential genocide is all part of that.

Sound like your Syrian regime favs.

 

[coley]

It's true. I'm fairly ignorant on the subject of ideology. I must read some books about it.



Yes it is.

You seem to leap from your dislike of their ideology to the conclusion that, because it is so horrible, it could not possibly be inspiring people to fight and die for it. You are profoundly mistaken.

No it's not, as has been pointed out without heavy backing and logistics this lot would have met the same fate as their dervish predecessors at Omdurman ( a group with impeccable ideological credentials)

It's tanks, artillery and money that's giving them the edge, not Allah or auld Mo.

 

[phildwyer]

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand that rotten ideology and equate those aspects of it with some kind of weakness that only westerners and seculars are afflicted by. So you want that aspect whitewashed.

I'm not even sure what you mean now. I suspect that you know you're wrong, and have consequently lapsed into incoherence.

Fidel Castro used to talk a lot about this, when he sent the Cuban army into Angola. He used to laugh at Western commentators trying to work out why he'd done it. What could possibly be in it for Cuba, they asked. Are there diamonds there? Are the Soviets paying him a fortune?

As Castro pointed out, the West was incapable of imagining that he might be motivated by ideology. The only motivations the West understands are avarice and lust. They literally cannot conceive of anyone acting for other motives. It seems that you are the same.

 

[phildwyer]

No it's not, as has been pointed out without heavy backing and logistics this lot would have met the same fate as their dervish predecessors at Omdurman

And without ideology they wouldn't exist in the first place.

 

[Casually Red]

It's true. I'm fairly ignorant on the subject of ideology. I must read some books about it.



Yes it is.

You seem to leap from your dislike of their ideology to the conclusion that, because it is so horrible, it could not possibly be inspiring people to fight and die for it. You are profoundly mistaken.

nonsense...as evidenced from your need to edit out the rest of the post adressing the issue. Far from beng ideologically exclusve theyve been cyncal enough to absorb all sorts of actors that planly dont share it . That requires a combination of bribes and perks as well as threats ..carrot and stick.including Baathist generals that used to torture and hang them and Sunni tribes that rose up against them en masse so sick were they of their fundamentalism and backward intolerance.

 

[coley]

And without ideology they wouldn't exist in the first place.

And as has been repeatedly pointed out,their ideology isn't enough.

 

[Casually Red]

I'm not even sure what you mean now. I suspect that you know you're wrong, and have consequently lapsed into incoherence.

Fidel Castro used to talk a lot about this, when he sent the Cuban army into Angola. He used to laugh at Western commentators trying to work out why he'd done it. What could possibly be in it for Cuba, they asked. Are there diamonds there? Are the Soviets paying him a fortune?

As Castro pointed out, the West was incapable of imagining that he might be motivated by ideology. The only motivations the West understands are avarice and lust. They literally cannot conceive of anyone acting for other motives. It seems that you are the same.

oh fuck me..its Cuba now..was the brigadistas a while back . Plainly your tasteless comparisons are down to some sort of anti materialist kick youre on that finds a bizarre resonance in what you perceive to be the programme of these death squads.

For the record Fidel Castro dd not appropriate Angolan resources and seize them for export...nor did he view the property children and women of his opponents as loot...playthings to be bought sold and sexually exploited . Nor did he extort money from the civilian population in a massive protection racket on pain of immediate and horrible death . That puts the Cubans on a different motivational as well as moral planet to these parasites pimps and mercenaries who derive an immediate and massive financial and personal benefit ..often sexually perverted..from their reign of terror. There are immediate material and personal benefits for those aligned to this group as well as a desire to avod the alternative for non alignment..death..whch was just as much a feature of Al Capones mindset . You dismiss this because you insist they are of pure and pious mindset down to an ideology that rejects materialism and the worldly.

An ideology formulated and exported by a gang of fucing billionaires in the most outlandish and ornate saudi Kuwait Emirate and Qatari palaces .

 

[phildwyer]

oh fuck me..its Cuba now..was the brigadistas a while back . Plainly your tasteless comparisons are down to some sort of anti materialist kick youre on that finds a bizarre resonance in what you perceive to be the programme of these death squads.

For the record Fidel Castro dd not appropriate Angolan resources and seize them for export...nor did he view the property children and women of his opponents as loot...playthings to be bought sold and sexually exploited . Nor did he extort money from the civilian population in a massive protection racket on pain of immediate and horrible death . That puts the Cubans on a different motivational as well as moral planet to these parasites pimps and mercenaries who derive an immediate and massive financial and personal benefit ..often sexually perverted..from their reign of terror. There are immediate material and personal benefits for those aligned to this group as well as a desire to avod the alternative for non alignment..death..whch was just as much a feature of Al Capones mindset . You dismiss this because you insist they are of pure and pious mindset down to an ideology that rejects materialism and the worldly.

An ideology formulated and exported by a gang of fucing billionaires in the most outlandish and ornate saudi Kuwait Emirate and Qatari palaces .

Look, the source of your misunderstanding is obvious.

You seem to think that pointing out the fact that IS are motivated by ideology implies endorsement of that ideology.

But it does not.

That is your basic mistake.

 

[coley]

The main thrust of their ideology seem to be about taking their religion back to its medieval roots.

 

[Casually Red]

Look, the source of your misunderstanding is obvious.

You seem to think that pointing out the fact that IS are motivated by ideology implies endorsement of that ideology.

But it does not.

That is your basic mistake.

ive never once sad this group doesnt have an ideological motivation..no doubt many of them are fanatics. But the inescapable fact is they use other motivational tools to attract and spur on recruits too..ranging from money sex local power and exploitation of local sectarian grievance as well as showing off their advanced weaponry and threatening to use it on those who dont sign up. Thats how theyve become so big .

A good comparison is the nazis..a hardcore of fanatics one day tiny and a joke..the next empowered by financial backers to combat another threat.. who engaged in all manner of gangsterism under an ideological banner. Singling out the weak ..the different..the minority for dehumanization ..outright robbery ..plunder enslavement and annihilation .
Prussian generals didnt share their ideology and regarded them with distaste but made them a formidable military force regardless...just as the former Baathist generals are doing with this lot . Western powers originally saw them as the antidote to a foe as well and helped them n all sorts of underhand ways...same with this lot . Then t went horribly wrong .

 

[chilango]

No it's not, as has been pointed out without heavy backing and logistics this lot would have met the same fate as their dervish predecessors at Omdurman ( a group with impeccable ideological credentials)

What the Mahdist revolt that conquered, and held, most of Anglo-Egyptian Sudan for the best part of 15 years?

Those "dervishes"?

General Gordon would like a quiet word...

 

[Casually Red]

The main thrust of their ideology seem to be about taking their religion back to its medieval roots.

yet that proved to have very little political appeal in Iraq where the very people supporting them now previously rose against them and consigned them to the regional dustbin until very recently

i think their main political appeal isnt medievalism...for example theyre the most tech savvy outfit to ever emerge and have embraced the filthy internet wholeheartedly to attract support.... not least the meme

...but that they promise a Sunni arab renaissance..the final defeat of shias and other ethnic minorities on Arab lands. The installation of the Sunni arab as unquestioned top dogs accross the region. Thats why the Sunni Iraqis whove been badly fucked over support them today . While in Syria they exploit sectarianism and chauvinism..but with much less success .
Hitlers Reich promised to restore the pride and place of the german people garnering him support from sections that didnt share his ideology..ian Paisley drew support from many protestants who werent even remotely religious on the same pretext ...making them top dogs against the other in a protestant Ulster.
Same with the Caliphate...first and foremost Sunni will be top dog . And what maes it attractive to the point it outweighs the obvious negative aspects of this group is the massive amounts of gear and cash theyve been donated by states. it means theyre actually in with a hope of getting somewhere...or appear to be . And that more than medieval ideology is what gets them supporters .

 

[Anudder Oik]

What the Mahdist revolt that conquered, and held, most of Anglo-Egyptian Sudan for the best part of 15 years?

Those "dervishes"?

General Gordon would like a quiet word...

The Dervishes were brave, but if Gordon had had a british army with him, like that at Omdurman, he would less likely have fallen. His mission was to withdraw the garrisons of egyptian troops and their families from a string of forts, and so, went to his death almost alone. He tried to save the few officers who accompanied him by ordering them out and told the egypytian soldiers they could desert to the other side to save their lives, while staying on alone himself to face his fate. I read that he was also a philanthropist.

 

[phildwyer]

The main thrust of their ideology seem to be about taking their religion back to its medieval roots.

Yes it does. They appear to oppose what the West thinks of as "modernity" tout court.

The West would do well to consider why they feel this way.

 

[phildwyer]

The Dervishes were brave, but if Gordon had had a british army with him, like that at Omdurman, he would less likely have fallen. His mission was to withdraw the garrisons of egyptian troops and their families from a string of forts, and so, went to his death almost alone. He tried to save the few officers who accompanied him by ordering them out and told the egypytian soldiers they could desert to the other side to save their lives, while staying on alone himself to face his fate. I read that he was also a philanthropist.

This is the only thing to read on Gordon:

http://www.bartleby.com/189/401.html

Sound familiar?

"The meanest of the Mahdi’s followers was, he realised, “a determined warrior, who could undergo thirst and privation, who no more cared for pain or death than if he were stone.” Those were the men whom, if the choice had lain with him, he would have wished to command. And yet, strangely enough, he persistently underrated the strength of the forces against him. A handful of Englishmen—a handful of Turks—would, he believed, be enough to defeat the Mahdi’s hosts and destroy his dominion. He knew very little Arabic, and he depended for his information upon a few ignorant English-speaking subordinates."

 

[Casually Red]

Yes it does. They appear to oppose what the West thinks of as "modernity" tout court.

The West would do well to consider why they feel this way.

dd they announce that on one of ther 60000 twitter accounts ? emphasized by a menacing selfie ?

 

[Casually Red]

some coverage here of the Kurdish protests accross Europe demanding this genocide be halted...Dutch Parliament in the Hague and Brussels parliament occupied....An MEP tells them the EU is the answer to IS
far as i know she never got a well deserved slap

http://rt.com/news/193832-kurdish-isis-protest-brussels/


london protests here

http://rt.com/uk/193992-london-turkey-isis-kurds/

 

[coley]

Look, the source of your misunderstanding is obvious.

You seem to think that pointing out the fact that IS are motivated by ideology implies endorsement of that ideology.

But it does not.

That is your basic mistake.

Not endorsement, I would agree, but respect for their religious beliefs?