The Islamic state

[Athos]

James Madison?

“Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. … No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.”

 

[frogwoman]

It is not my claim that Iraq etc enjoyed no public support.

My concern is that a portion of those who opposed this stuff have since started to jump the shark. I'm glad you mentioned Israel, because in my opinion some of the justifications that Israel has long used are on display here, and are apparently considered acceptable when we use them because ISIS are cunts. A mistake if ever I saw one, on more than one level.

Right, i know you weren't, but you were saying that you doubt you'd have been questioned on why you found this strike wrong? Maybe not here but you would in lots of other settings. There are social settings where saying far worse shit than you would ever read on here, is acceptable, and has been openly acceptable, for a very very long time. I'm not even talking about the organised far right.

And the other day i thought you were saying (apologies if i misunderstood, it wouldnt be the first time ) it was a mistake to say a significant change of political direction towards authoritarianism changed in the country at 9/11 and that things aren't that much worse now than back then?

And re the Israel thing, one of the tragedies of this whole thing is that its completely overshadowed what the zios are doing in gaza and set back the cause of action against the israeli government, whether it's outside or against israel itself. Everyones basically forgot about Gaza now. Well not everyone, but you know .

 

[Casually Red]

It is not my claim that Iraq etc enjoyed no public support.

My concern is that a portion of those who opposed this stuff have since started to jump the shark. I'm glad you mentioned Israel, because in my opinion some of the justifications that Israel has long used are on display here, and are apparently considered acceptable when we use them because ISIS are cunts. A mistake if ever I saw one, on more than one level.

Agree v strongly with this

 

[not-bono-ever]

James Madison?

“Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people. … No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.”

here we go ( I didnt want to google this grrrrrr)

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy"

Madison ( see, I knew that first degree in Septic studies would pay dividends one day)

 

[Athos]

here we go ( I didnt want to google this grrrrrr)

"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy"

Madison ( see, I knew that first degree in Septic studies would pay dividends one day)

A certain irony in a slave owner warning of tyrany and oppresion!

 

[Humberto]

Tricking there way towards war. As others have pointed out that would be a very bad idea. I'm not that informed, what is the Obama administrations outlook and likely moves? Everyone knows Britain hasn't the capacity to act alone. Not least because they are not allowed to.

 

[elbows]

Right, i know you weren't, but you were saying that you doubt you'd have been questioned on why you found this strike wrong? Maybe not here but you would in lots of other settings. There are social settings where saying far worse shit than you would ever read on here, is acceptable, and has been openly acceptable, for a very very long time. I'm not even talking about the organised far right.

I'm painfully aware of that. My point about not being questioned was very much related to u75. To be more precise I would have been expected to be questioned by the usual suspects, so perhaps its more the lack of overwhelming voices on my sort of side of things that I find alarming when it comes to these sorts of issues and my memories of the past here.

And the other day i thought you were saying (apologies if i misunderstood, it wouldnt be the first time ) it was a mistake to say a significant change of political direction towards authoritarianism changed in the country at 9/11 and that things aren't that much worse now than back then?

You are correct, thats what I meant. But thats because I was acknowledging the extent to which authoritarianism of various varieties existed within power, the media and a chunk of the masses fairly consistently for a very long time. A change of mood music in the 90's may have made the early 2000's seem like some brand new horror, but it wasn't. And I have been very happy with the extent to which many resisted this shit. I'm concerned that might finally be changing amongst a constituent that previous resisted going down this path, but it might just be that u75 has changed, e.g. some parts might have fallen below the critical mass needed to enjoy the sorts of discussions my memory harks back to - or it could be some nostalgic myth in my mind.

And re the Israel thing, one of the tragedies of this whole thing is that its completely overshadowed what the zios are doing in gaza and set back the cause of action against the israeli government, whether it's outside or against israel itself. Everyones basically forgot about Gaza now. Well not everyone, but you know .

My concern is more along the lines that when something happens to brig it back on the agenda, some positions will have been fundamentally undermined in the meantime by principals supported in this thread. I'm not asking you to love islamists, but please think back to your historical acquantaincies and their rejoicing of terrorist death when you spill careless words over daesh and say you don't care.

 

[Casually Red]

I think the points Fisk raises are spot on ..namely, the exposure by Turkish media of the Turkish intelligence services directly supplying IS with weapons, the fact IS was up to its neck with the so called FSA while that brand was being directly supplied and supported by western powers, including US and Britain . With that support going directly into IS hands , and they knew it but carried on doing it . The technical assistance they receive in keeping their oil and gas wells operational . The support they've gotten, and still get , from Britains NATO and regional allies .

In my view this drone attack by Britain was just as cynical a ploy as Erdogans manoeuvres . At most it's been a face saver . It obscures what Britains own partners are up to . But worse it's more foot in the door stuff . Having actively sponsored terrorism for years in Syria and not gotten the desired objective it seems the only way they can overthrow the state now is by direct action against it as opposed to purely proxy means . Bombing in Syria for whatever reason means they're already in there and they're already bombing . For people who'd dearly and truly love to be bombing the capital to smithereens that's not a good thing at all . It's like a thief on a bus inching closer and closer and closer to that juicy big hand bag . To me this attack has been crafted just so everyone will look the other way .

 

[xenon]

Who cares who said it platitudes.

This as always, is an interesting thread. But let's not reduce it to soundbites. Dead academics and their piffy slogans.

 

[Mr Moose]

I found a post I made , like about 2 years ago now, where I was a bit concerned about the demonisation of the emergent IS movement - for both objectivity and rational thinking about the issues at hand. Looks like this really has been more of an issue than I actually consiodered at the time

Yes it's terrible what the media have done to their public image.

 

[xenon]

From my POV I am generally mistrustful about what we are told, government actions pertaining to militaristic affairs. AK why certain people must die. But in broad terms I have no objection to killing people that would commit atrocities. Lawyers be damned. Hirelings of the dominant power. you can do anything legaly if you pay enough lawyers.

 

[Athos]

From my POV I am generally mistrustful about what we are told, government actions pertaining to militaristic affairs. AK why certain people must die. But in broad terms I have no objection to killing people that would commit atrocities. Lawyers be damned. Hirelings of the dominant power. you can do anything legaly if you pay enough lawyers.

Particularly with regrd to International 'Law', which is really little more than politics and power.

 

[xenon]

I am not a pacifist. Being adroit, machiavellian in dealing with your enemies, I don't have any objection per se with. Somewhat gut reaction, sorry I will go back to reading rather than posting on this thread.

 

[xenon]

Particularly with regrd to International 'Law', which is really little more than politics and power.

Indeed. legal sanction can impede moral action and / or justify heinous actions. You just need the right paperwork.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm painfully aware of that. My point about not being questioned was very much related to u75. To be more precise I would have been expected to be questioned by the usual suspects, so perhaps its more the lack of overwhelming voices on my sort of side of things that I find alarming when it comes to these sorts of issues and my memories of the past here.



You are correct, thats what I meant. But thats because I was acknowledging the extent to which authoritarianism of various varieties existed within power, the media and a chunk of the masses fairly consistently for a very long time. A change of mood music in the 90's may have made the early 2000's seem like some brand new horror, but it wasn't. And I have been very happy with the extent to which many resisted this shit. I'm concerned that might finally be changing amongst a constituent that previous resisted going down this path, but it might just be that u75 has changed, e.g. some parts might have fallen below the critical mass needed to enjoy the sorts of discussions my memory harks back to - or it could be some nostalgic myth in my mind.



My concern is more along the lines that when something happens to brig it back on the agenda, some positions will have been fundamentally undermined in the meantime by principals supported in this thread. I'm not asking you to love islamists, but please think back to your historical acquantaincies and their rejoicing of terrorist death when you spill careless words over daesh and say you don't care.

The fact is i find it really, really hard to care, or have a great deal of sympathy since they knew what they were getting themselves into, i feel honestly worse for someone thats been conscripted or see's no other choice since the options are either that, get killed by someone or run away, not people who went to syria because they believed in what they believed. It's like with israeli settlers or foreign fighters (and these people in some ways are quite similar to it) i feel less sympathy about them being harmed in whatever way than i would if its a random idf soldier that's been forced to fight through an accident of birth, regardless of what their own views are about the whole situation.

i know that's,wrong and im not in favour of war and killing anyone and as i thought about it some more i can see the problems with all of this. its worrying because of the precedent it sets. A bit like it would be fucked up if a russian fascist like Barkashov was in the UK and putin sent a drone to come and kill him, regardless of him being a cunt. but in general i find it hard to care that IS have been demonised when they've been the ones putting out that message about themselves, they've been the ones writing articles justifying slavery, releasing videos of people being burnt to death etc, even tho what they say about themselves doesnt 100% match the truth?? My biggest concern is with the civilian loss of life which is inevitably going to increase if more and more countries start attacking, without much incentive or even.any chance to end the violence

I dont think it will have been undermined completely!! (The palestinian solidarity stuff) my worry is more that it will have lost some of the 'soft' sympathisers and it may be hard to get them back as politics gets more polarised, theres a sense that israels actions could appear to be justified now (or appear more justified and less exceptional than before as with Saudi bombing Yemen etc) as the rest of the ME is turning to shit, which is the stance thats now taken by egypt and saudi arabia among others, egypt is even joining in with israeli policies on gaza now without significant active oppo thats not dead or in jail.

Its depressing and i don't know where it is all gonna end. ETA deleted bollocks

 

[Casually Red]

From my POV I am generally mistrustful about what we are told, government actions pertaining to militaristic affairs. AK why certain people must die. But in broad terms I have no objection to killing people that would commit atrocities. Lawyers be damned. Hirelings of the dominant power. you can do anything legaly if you pay enough lawyers.

Well certainly very few are going to grieve the loss of scumbags like that . And generally speaking the world can at least outwardly seem a better place when theres a few less people like that in it .But I think we must constantly remind ourselves that...unlike ourselves... the Uk government and it's partners have no moral objections whatsoever to scumbags like that, would and do happily use them for their own purposes , are quite happy for them to commit atrocities on the right people when it suits, and we need to be very, very wary indeed when they waggle this bogeyman at us and tell us they are on the side of the angels when they plainly aren't . And not be blinded or distracted from the wider picture as to what their actual objectives in that region are . Which are far from humanitarian, anything but .

 

[Casually Red]

I am not a pacifist. Being adroit, machiavellian in dealing with your enemies, I don't have any objection per se with. Somewhat gut reaction, sorry I will go back to reading rather than posting on this thread.

Yes but how much of an enemy are they really when they seem , very much so, to be friends with quite a few friends ? If they were that much of an enemy surely HMG would be falling out with its friends over them . Afterall they arent freinds when they actively endanger your interests and your national seurity .They're most certainly not .For example Erdogans alleged anti IS campaign is cynical in the extreme . A barely concealed ruse that hasnt scratched them .In turn IS have had a minor spokesperson call Erdogan a nasty name . And that seems to be it .
Turkey has been helping IS and other Al Q factions because it's in turkeys interests to do so . As have other states .


Plainly killing 2 low ranking IS members , footsoldiers, punters who were not geniuses or masterminds by any stretch of the imagination, has not diminished by one iota any threat to British national security that massive well resourced organisation could conceivably pose . Especially not when it has the backing of certain state actors .

So that's definitely not the reason they did it, its a lie and we are being lied to .

 

[Anudder Oik]

OMG there's a kill list for cunts who've joined Islamics in a state!!! lol

I wonder if Rights watch UK have taken the time to file one of their complaints against Jihadi John. Probably not, as he may very well be a potential victim of a drone attack some day himself and they may need to take "legal action" about it if such an unjustified event should occur.

There are even readers comments in the guardian, re the kill list, from people saying things like;

"So they were thinking of plotting to commit a crime, but didn't commit that crime, and are now dead for something they didn't do? This year's 10 May and 17 June? Or next year's?"

and this other retard alert.

"Isn't it a little tragic that a British citizen is now wondering whether his own government is planning to kill his children, without even presenting him with, at least, some evidence or chance of closure?" "Imagine what that would feel like - as a dad".

I shit you not.

Ministers drew up 'kill' list of British jihadis fighting with Isis in Syria

 

[xenon]

Yes but how much of an enemy are they really when they seem , very much so, to be friends with quite a few friends ? If they were that much of an enemy surely HMG would be falling out with its friends over them . Afterall they arent freinds when they actively endanger your interests and your national seurity .They're most certainly not .For example Erdogans alleged anti IS campaign is cynical in the extreme . A barely concealed ruse that hasnt scratched them .In turn IS have had a minor spokesperson call Erdogan a nasty name . And that seems to be it .
Turkey has been helping IS and other Al Q factions because it's in turkeys interests to do so . As have other states .


Plainly killing 2 low ranking IS members , footsoldiers, punters who were not geniuses or masterminds by any stretch of the imagination, has not diminished by one iota any threat to British national security that massive well resourced organisation could conceivably pose . Especially not when it has the backing of certain state actors .

So that's definitely not the reason they did it, its a lie and we are being lied to .

It can be both you know. Your last sentence doesn't necessarily follow from your former analysis.

As I say, really I'm just reading. There are no Angels here, but which devils can you live with. if you see what I mean.

 

[Casually Red]

OMG there's a kill list for cunts who've joined Islamics in a state!!! lol

I wonder if Rights watch UK have taken the time to file one of their complaints against Jihadi John. Probably not, as he may very well be a potential victim of a drone attack some day himself and they may need to take "legal action" about it if such an unjustified event should occur.

There are even readers comments in the guardian, re the kill list, from people saying things like;

"So they were thinking of plotting to commit a crime, but didn't commit that crime, and are now dead for something they didn't do? This year's 10 May and 17 June? Or next year's?"

and this other retard alert.

"Isn't it a little tragic that a British citizen is now wondering whether his own government is planning to kill his children, without even presenting him with, at least, some evidence or chance of closure?" "Imagine what that would feel like - as a dad".

I shit you not.

Ministers drew up 'kill' list of British jihadis fighting with Isis in Syria

Do you really believe that these fuckwits who were actually on the telly ..and every national newspaper in Britain...barefacedly openly boasting about their IS exploits were about to sneak into Britain ...somehow...by submarine or parachute etc ? Because theres no way they were getting in by usual channels . That if IS wanted to attack such events they'd send complete glaring , honking red lights instead of the creeping multitudes of clean skins they have at their disposal ? People who at the very least weren't all over the BB bloody C talking about what they were up to .

You actually believe this ?

 

[Casually Red]

I dunno . Like I've made clear , even though i dont really differentiate between any of the terrorist groups in Syria, the publicised crimes of IS ...the deliberate publicity itself..are so heinous I've genuinely no moral problem with them being mustard gassed . The manner in which they openly revel in their crimes is so disgusting they deserve a fittingly painful and disgusting end .they deserve extra special punishment . The rest I'd just be happy to see blown up or shot by conventional military methods . Not one tear would I shed for a single one of them .

However I believe very firmly that the people blowing them up should only be doing it either under the auspices of the United Nations or in partnership with the relavent sovereign authorities, namely the Iraqi and Syrian governments . And not by cowboys and pirates floating round the middle east with their own agendas, doing as they will , and bombing whoever they get into their heads needs bombed one day, while giving bombs and missiles to their fellow travellers the next . While turning regular blind eyes to their partner states supporting IS while pretending theyre being combatted . Because that spells chaos and mayhem , and makes the world infinitely more dangerous . And it's also the perfect cover for all manner of murderous skulduggery . And most importantly it will not bring the end of this awful war one day nearer either . It will prolong it .


As regards the stated reasons for this type of action, these Internet celebrities stood absolutely zero chance of getting into britain and operating clandestinely . And there's zero chance the IS leadership were planning a certain failure by sending them off to certain embarrassing capture, as it'd just make themselves look very stupid . And while they're a lot of things the fact is they've overrun cities and taken oil facilities and all the rest . They aren't stupid , not at a leadership level .

So ,we get back to the issue as raised by a few on here that when considering the actions of HMG the heart should never rule the head . Emotion plays absolutely zero role in their calculations, except how they go about manipulating the emotions of others . Therefore emotions should be left at the door when considering their actions .And I believe this is a case were emotions are being deliberately manipulated for nefarious ends .

Ultimately the British government are knocking off their own citizens , ostensibly for stuff they haven't done yet and for stuff I believe they were incapable of doing or attempting to do . I don't believe for an instant those guys were ever heading back to the Uk . They were scum, no doubt about it . But I also believe the scum who ordered it are completely making up the reasons why they did it . nor do I believe IS has any real intention of attacking western targets , their focus is overwhelmingy on the lands they're out to seize and occupy .

So, all emotion aside, is that a good thing Hmg is telling lies to the britishublic about the reasons why it's arbitrarily killing it's own citizens, while violatin yet another states sovereignty and getting up to all sorts of skulduggery there by other means ? While allies of states who actively assist IS and others just like them ? I'd say definitely not .

 

[Casually Red]

A good article here which downplays the importance of former Ba'athists in the ranks of IS and reckons that aspect has been completely over hyped and is largely irrelevant .

If Only There were Real Baathists in the Islamic State…

Have to say I agree with the logic there .

 

[DownwardDog]

depends on how close their car was to the target car...

100 yards you'd be fine - probably. you wouldn't want to be closer than 50, not least because the target car would get turned into a million flying razor blades and a 1000c bonfire.

Here's some weapon porn of test DM Brimstone launches from an MQ-9. I don't think you'd want to be in the same postcode as the warshots.

 

[LDC]

With respect that's a very simplistic reading of it. I think the point is that when it comes to executions any accountability and transparency/oversight - even heavily flawed liberal forms - is better than unilateral executive action without any kind of transparency or public/legislative oversight whatsoever.

Yeah, as I pointed out a bit ago, I'm the first to say I often have simplistic positions, and I agree, this one is slightly less nuanced than it could be, partly because on one level that's what I genuinely think, but partly if I'm honest there's an element of devil's advocate there too.

I also know and understand that my position is in part one born of the fact that I (and nearly everyone I know) are highly unlikely (to put it mildly) to be on the receiving end of anything like this, and if I was from a community or lived in a part of the world where this was a real possibility (by accident or otherwise) I might well be a keener on a bit of liberal oversight of the State that had the missiles!

Anyway, I think we mostly actually agree on more than it might seem at first glance, and thanks for all the good contributions on here, it's an interesting discussion, but it is one that is slightly tangential to the bigger picture at hand I think. And I guess that's also a factor in why I think getting ourselves too wrapped up in this incidents (for want of a better word) is a mistake. I think the left (both radical and wider left) does tend to jump from issue to issue (motivated by outrage) on things like this, creating small campaigns and struggles around specific micro-factors within wider struggles, and I think this is far from generally a useful political way of operating.

 

[LDC]

What im saying is a lot of people wont read this story and be thinking 'oh good another terrorist killed' or even 'bit dodgy but im not fussed' they'll be thinking 'what did they know that the british govt wont want coming out' and 'how come the state can now murder people if they're muslim' or 'IS was created, and/or its atrocities hyped, by usa and israel to demonise muslims/for a war on islam'

I'd argue that sort of attitude is a lot more common than people may realise. Its this kind of people that daesh want to attract, not the kind of people posting on here or daily mail reading types. The people who are into conspiracy theory mindsets and easily open to the sort of views daesh want to portray, for whatever reason, even if they're not sympathetic to them as a group...yet

It's a whole other discussion, but I do think that's a really good point about the illogical shit loads of people have as beliefs. I've worked in quite a few parts of the world in the last years (among them a good few like the ME) and it's genuinely shocking how many people hold conspiracy-type beliefs that would get laughed at on here.

 

[LDC]

Why do you just instinctively believe these self serving ,lying , corrupt, manipulative , criminal bastards ? While I shed not a single tear for the barbarians who were roasted , not for one single instant do I give an ounce of credence to Cameron's explanation . And in my view only a gullible idiot would, or a liar would pretend to .

I find your refusal to accept anything the State says as true as a bit odd to be honest! It must leave you in some strange positions.

 

[Mr Moose]

There isn't any question for me that Britain has a legitimate right to strike at IS following Tunisia and the grooming of large numbers of British Children. IS is a threat to the UK and it's right we should work to degrade it in all ways practical.

But the people living under IS are not our enemies and have to be part of any solution. They have had calamity roll over them and are about to experience it again as rearmed Assad provides Chechnia style total solution courtesy of the Russians. We should not play a part in it.

The best solution is that stalemate and degradation of the combatants allows them to settle for a UN martialed peace with safe enclaves. Painful rebuilding over decades. Not a favoured solution of either Imperialists or Islamists. But with pressure applied by the world in the right way, IS can collapse.

 

[Teaboy]

I've got to say I think CR is spot on with this one. The government's justification seems laughably shit and just seems to hark back to the days of Blair and Dubbya when just shouting terrorist is all you needed for justification for any crap they wanted to get up to.

For me this was a targeted PR exercise in the first instance to soften up the country to the acceptability of bombing in Syria and it had the added benefit of putting back in the box (literally) a couple of mouthy Brits who had taunted the government and security services on you tube.

 

[Pickman's model]

I find your refusal to accept anything the State says as true as a bit odd to be honest! It must leave you in some strange positions.

yeh. it would. if he'd said that.

 

[Pickman's model]

Who cares who said it platitudes.

This as always, is an interesting thread. But let's not reduce it to soundbites. Dead academics and their piffy slogans.

i feel the hand of history on my keyboard