The Islamic state

[kebabking]

The propaganda coup of them looking like martyrs and promoting the image of themselves as 'the only' side thats 'not collaborating' with the west, which given how many people have gone syria already could be something we could do without. Suddenly they/their fighters look like victims, not to the general public but to people on the way to being radicalised over here who may be in two minds over it. Did you read the link i put up about awlaki a few pages ago? He may be more influential in death than he ever was in life...

i see what you mean, but the crux of the propaganda test is whether it speaks to people outside of their bubble, and i'd argue that if you are umming-and-arrhhing about supporting them, and you get outraged by this, then you aren't really undecided, or half-in but not sure, but that actually you're on their side, you just haven't sorted out out your admin yet.

i also don't get the victim thing - how can someone pictured constantly with an AK-47 be a victim of anything, other than idiocy and very bad choices?

 

[not-bono-ever]

The Victims thing - it all depends on who your target market is - not DM readers obviously- a generation of dissolusioned kids with shitty prospects and too much call of duty- whats not to like about hefting an AK around and driving a pickup with a .50 cal on the back?

 

[kebabking]

any proper indication of why this went public after so long ?

they were probably waiting both to confirm that they'd killed who they thought they'd killed, and looking to see if the int that gave them this operation would give them any follow ups. its also very probable that they were seeking to pre-empt a leak. RAF Waddington has lots of people, a secret-air-base in the ME has lots of people, lots of civil servants would have become aware of it (MOD, FCO, AG's Office, cabinet Office), SIS has lots of people, GCHQ has lots of people - not all of them keep their mouths shut, and not all of their partners keep their mouths shut.

 

[elbows]

the only way this can become a propaganda coup for IS is if Britain decides to make it one through tying itself in knots over angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin legal definitions that no one outside the media and political bubble gives a flea-sized shit about, and i suspect that lots inside that bubble don't give a flea-sized shit about, but feel they have to go through the motions...

Don't say no one please. I'm not in either of those bubbles and I care.

It's not going through the motions to give a shit about certain principals. Including complex sets of principals that may conflict with each other.

We didn't write Guantanamo bay off as irrelevant just because many of its inmates were cunts. What changed?

 

[elbows]

i see what you mean, but the crux of the propaganda test is whether it speaks to people outside of their bubble

Not really. Politicians invest a lot in propaganda which is designed to strengthen and motivate their base.

 

[kebabking]

Don't say no one please. I'm not in either of those bubbles and I care...

what is it about this op that offends you?

i'm genuinely interested and a bit perplexed - its killing an enemy, a self-proclaimed enemy, probably without much in the way of non-combatant casualties, ordered/authorised by the people we (like it or not) elected to make such decisions on our behalf, and the reporting of such to the wider representative body. Labour, as well as the SNP (though one part of the SNP chose not to tell the other about it...) recieved a briefing on it, almost certainly on privy council terms and were given much more information than was released generally. neither appear to be shouting 'murder' from the rooftops.

i am genuinely perplexed as to why people who would not describe themselves as Pacifists in the full sense would be so concerned by the action.

 

[frogwoman]

i see what you mean, but the crux of the propaganda test is whether it speaks to people outside of their bubble, and i'd argue that if you are umming-and-arrhhing about supporting them, and you get outraged by this, then you aren't really undecided, or half-in but not sure, but that actually you're on their side, you just haven't sorted out out your admin yet.

i also don't get the victim thing - how can someone pictured constantly with an AK-47 be a victim of anything, other than idiocy and very bad choices?

i dont think they're victims! But that's how prospective daesh supporters may see it particularly if they believe a narrative that portrays a global war on islam

 

[kebabking]

...But that's how prospective daesh supporters may see it particularly if they believe a narrative that portrays a global war on islam

thats the thing - if they are so warped that they see a bloke with an AK and a twitter feed thats says 'executed loads today' and 'attended the worlds longest beheading today' as a victim, then they aint prospective IS supporters.

 

[frogwoman]

thats the thing - if they are so warped that they see a bloke with an AK and a twitter feed thats says 'executed loads today' and 'attended the worlds longest beheading today' as a victim, then they aint prospective IS supporters.

Right but they might not know about those posts? Or they might think they're 'faked' lol (a worrying amount of people seem to believe its all a big conspiracy and i believe that that stupid gold dinar shite for example is calculated to attract such people or at least get them to 'open their eyes' a bit) there are loads of people who literally dont believe anything thats said by 'official' channels and might be more willing to believe daesh particularly if they've already got mates that sympathise with it.

Anyway not really that arsed about the deaths of these twats, its the principle thats concerning, and the fact that ithe situation just seems to be getting worse with no end in sight, although that's not really down to this one incident.

 

[J Ed]

The DM might as well be IS' press agency in this country, it really is full of their shit

 

[frogwoman]

What im saying is a lot of people wont read this story and be thinking 'oh good another terrorist killed' or even 'bit dodgy but im not fussed' they'll be thinking 'what did they know that the british govt wont want coming out' and 'how come the state can now murder people if they're muslim' or 'IS was created, and/or its atrocities hyped, by usa and israel to demonise muslims/for a war on islam'

I'd argue that sort of attitude is a lot more common than people may realise. Its this kind of people that daesh want to attract, not the kind of people posting on here or daily mail reading types. The people who are into conspiracy theory mindsets and easily open to the sort of views daesh want to portray, for whatever reason, even if they're not sympathetic to them as a group...yet

 

[kebabking]

Right but they might not know about those posts? Or they might think they're 'faked' lol (a worrying amount of people seem to believe its all a big conspiracy and i believe that that stupid gold dinar shite for example is calculated to attract such people or at least get them to 'open their eyes' a bit) there are loads of people who literally dont believe anything thats said by 'official' channels and might be more willing to believe daesh particularly if they've already got mates that sympathise with it...

is it wrong to believe that someone so stupid as to ally themselves with an organisation the rest of the world is at war with, but who hasn't actually read what that organisation says about itself, is likely to have their existance cut short by the perils of shoelaces, or traffic, or electricity?

someone that unaware is likely to be sending an IS application form to iwantobeaterrorist@MI5.gov.uk - i'm tempted to think that such a person is little threat to anyone except themselves.

 

[not-bono-ever]

thats the thing - if they are so warped that they see a bloke with an AK and a twitter feed thats says 'executed loads today' and 'attended the worlds longest beheading today' as a victim, then they aint prospective IS supporters.

this isnt unusual- the Balkans war was stuffed full of randoms from across the globe who used their cultural/religious heritige - most of which didnt give that much of a shit about the place until it started hitting the news- and this provided modern day chetnik and Ustaše, blah fodder looking to get some orchestrated direction on their lives.

 

[not-bono-ever]

I found a post I made , like about 2 years ago now, where I was a bit concerned about the demonisation of the emergent IS movement - for both objectivity and rational thinking about the issues at hand. Looks like this really has been more of an issue than I actually consiodered at the time

 

[frogwoman]

is it wrong to believe that someone so stupid as to ally themselves with an organisation the rest of the world is at war with, but who hasn't actually read what that organisation says about itself, is likely to have their existance cut short by the perils of shoelaces, or traffic, or electricity?

someone that unaware is likely to be sending an IS application form to iwantobeaterrorist@MI5.gov.uk - i'm tempted to think that such a person is little threat to anyone except themselves.

No but theres a lot of stupid people about, look at the amount of people that believe in homoepathy, or that posting pictures of money on facebook will mean you get money, or britain will have sharia law by 2020, blah blah blah

 

[Casually Red]

they were probably waiting both to confirm that they'd killed who they thought they'd killed, and looking to see if the int that gave them this operation would give them any follow ups. its also very probable that they were seeking to pre-empt a leak. RAF Waddington has lots of people, a secret-air-base in the ME has lots of people, lots of civil servants would have become aware of it (MOD, FCO, AG's Office, cabinet Office), SIS has lots of people, GCHQ has lots of people - not all of them keep their mouths shut, and not all of their partners keep their mouths shut.

Why do you just instinctively believe these self serving ,lying , corrupt, manipulative , criminal bastards ? While I shed not a single tear for the barbarians who were roasted , not for one single instant do I give an ounce of credence to Cameron's explanation . And in my view only a gullible idiot would, or a liar would pretend to .

 

[frogwoman]

I found a post I made , like about 2 years ago now, where I was a bit concerned about the demonisation of the emergent IS movement - for both objectivity and rational thinking about the issues at hand. Looks like this really has been more of an issue than I actually consiodered at the time

TBF they have been doing most of that demonisation themselves by releasing atrocity videos in a manner thats deliberately designed to attract retaliation and being open about, say taking women as slaves

It's just that the other reasons behind their appeal are largely ignored, except by their supporters

 

[kebabking]

this isnt unusual- the Balkans war was stuffed full of randoms from across the globe who used their cultural/religious heritige - most of which didnt give that much of a shit about the place until it started hitting the news- and this provided modern day chetnik and Ustaše, blah fodder looking to get some orchestrated direction on their lives.

i know, i saw quite a few of them - lots of them ended up getting their throats cut by the groups they joined. most were sad walter-mitty charactors, some were psychopaths, very few were considered reliale or useful, and the genuine (in both senses) ones usually legged it within a short period of discovering what they'd got into.

 

[elbows]

what is it about this op that offends you?

i'm genuinely interested and a bit perplexed

If you are perplexed after the article I already linked to then I doubt my migraine-addled brain is going to be up to the task of explaining.

I'm not offended by it. But it certainly isn't business as usual for the UK government to have a kill list outside of a formal conflict and to have shifted from a criminal law to an international law approach on this front - you can argue about whether it is right or wrong, but it is certainly new and worthy of discussion.

I doubt David Davis is a pacifist.

Attitudes have shifted, I really doubt I'd even have been asked why I was vocal about this stuff 10+ years ago. It's a mess and I'm sad because it looks like fuckers on all sides got the war they wanted, thats one of the things that changed. Shitloads of people didn't buy into the war on terror when it was declared, and even if turning at least a partial blind-eye over Afghanistan initially, continued to resist all manner of shit. Terror attacks in the UK weren't enough to change that at the time, but it looks like somethings shifted. Now apparently it is war, various parameters have changed, and I'm supposed to let barbarous acts by ISIS reduce me to a dehumanising fear factory. Thats probably not going to happen in this case, even if it occasionally leaves me in a messy position.

 

[kebabking]

Why do you just instinctively believe these self serving ,lying , corrupt, manipulative , criminal bastards ? While I shed not a single tear for the barbarians who were roasted , not for one single instant do I give an ounce of credence to Cameron's explanation . And in my view only a gullible idiot would, or a liar would pretend to .

so, tell us what logical ideas you have for why the UK government has done what its done?

 

[Casually Red]

I found a post I made , like about 2 years ago now, where I was a bit concerned about the demonisation of the emergent IS movement - for both objectivity and rational thinking about the issues at hand. Looks like this really has been more of an issue than I actually consiodered at the time

Spot on . As despicable as these vermin are the reportage surrounding them has often been infantile hysteria . The overwhelming concentration of analysis , and lying politicians justifications, has concentrated on the snuff porn and not the actual issues at hand . Namely , the current and historical links this outfit has to other groups and regimes, who is and has been actively assisting it etc . All that type of important stuff . Fisk addresses the very same issue of the abject failure of journalism to analyse this here.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-but-we-must-continue-to-report-10468294.html

Personally I don't believe for one second that couple of deluded arseholes stuck in Syria posed the slightest threat to British interests , at least not in the manner of any impending attack or stuff like that .

 

[Spymaster]

so, tell us what logical ideas you have for why the UK government has done what its done?

Oh don't start him off, ffs!

 

[not-bono-ever]

fuckin hell, I have liked a casually red post. SIS will be arriving at my underground bunker any minute now.

 

[Casually Red]

so, tell us what logical ideas you have for why the UK government has done what its done?

I asked you a question as to why you instinctively believe pathological liars and corrupt criminals . From your response it's obvious you don't consider them as such. So you've answered my question pretty much . You plainly have faith in them and regard them as a reliable source of information who don't even have to show you any proof for you to instinctively believe them . Despite their long and ignoble track record of patholigical self serving lies .

 

[frogwoman]

I doubt David Davis is a pacifist.

Attitudes have shifted, I really doubt I'd even have been asked why I was vocal about this stuff 10+ years ago. It's a mess and I'm sad because it looks like fuckers on all sides got the war they wanted, thats one of the things that changed. Shitloads of people didn't buy into the war on terror when it was declared, and even if turning at least a partial blind-eye over Afghanistan initially, continued to resist all manner of shit. Terror attacks in the UK weren't enough to change that at the time, but it looks like somethings shifted. Now apparently it is war, various parameters have changed, and I'm supposed to let barbarous acts by ISIS reduce me to a dehumanising fear factory. Thats probably not going to happen in this case, even if it occasionally leaves me in a messy position.

Tbh.

When i went on the iraq war demo one of my mates and some family members fell out with us over it. My mate said that she supported the war because 'you shouldnt give in to bullies' another school friend gave a presentation for her GCSE english on why it was right to go to war in iraq. People in my family wouldnt spesk to us because it was being disloyal to israel, some of my relatives actually went as far as pouring french wine down the drain ffs. I remember a few weeks after 9/11 when the us attacked afghanistan this sing was going around:



I have had all kinds of shit thrown at me for my attitude to zionism, war and the like over the years. I went out with a girl for a bit that was constantly showing me 'achmed the dead terrorist' videos by the us 'comedian' jeff dunham.



Things have got worse and have been getting worse since 9/11 but i think its a mistake to think that the war in iraq enjoyed no public support. A few weeks after the iraq war a mate that was solidly against it and had campaigned against it started saying stuff to me like 'yeah well maybe it was a good idea to go and get rid of saddam' when the military campaign looked like it was going slightly better. And the other day you were saying (apologies if i misinterpreted you) that things hadnt got that much worse since 9/11 in terms of authoritarianism and attitudes towards muslims etc?

I think its totally unsurprising people are having the reaction they are having to daesh being killed - because they have engineered this reaction through the videos they put out, because they (and assad) have ensured that very very little of the voices of ordinary civilians are able to get out, through terror and the fact that the electricity and communication systems are bombed to fuckery. Electicity in raqqa was cut off for several weeks for the population while daesh were still able to use it and therefore comnunicate effectively with the outside world. The regime has done similar in areas its controlled. So not a surprise ordinary civilians arnt able to tell the world how much they are suffering from drones or daesh or assad or anything else.

 

[not-bono-ever]

there is some quote from someone I dont know anything about and i cant remember or can be arsed to google, but about tyranny being more easily adopted at home under the guise of fighting a bogeymanoverseas

 

[elbows]

Things have got worse and have been getting worse since 9/11 but i think its a mistake to think that the war in iraq enjoyed no public support. A few weeks after the iraq war a mate that was solidly against it and had campaigned against it started saying stuff to me like 'yeah well maybe it was a good idea to go and get rid of saddam' when the military campaign looked like it was going slightly better. And the other day you were saying (apologies if i misinterpreted you) that things hadnt got that much worse since 9/11 in terms of authoritarianism and attitudes towards muslims etc?

It is not my claim that Iraq etc enjoyed no public support.

My concern is that a portion of those who opposed this stuff have since started to jump the shark. I'm glad you mentioned Israel, because in my opinion some of the justifications that Israel has long used are on display here, and are apparently considered acceptable when we use them because ISIS are cunts. A mistake if ever I saw one, on more than one level.

 

[frogwoman]

there is some quote from someone I dont know anything about and i cant remember or can be arsed to google, but about tyranny being more easily adopted at home under the guise of fighting a bogeymanoverseas

But this trend has been going on in the UK and in other western states for quite a while, since at least 2000 and certainly before. Not that that makes it any better

I find it hard to see a positive end to all this tbh.

 

[Athos]

there is some quote from someone I dont know anything about and i cant remember or can be arsed to google, but about tyranny being more easily adopted at home under the guise of fighting a bogeymanoverseas

'A state of war only serves as an excuse for domestic tyrany.' Alexander Solzenitsyn, The Gulag Archipeligo

 

[not-bono-ever]

nah not him, but the idea is the same