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The Islamic state

Well my flounce didn't last long. Pickman's model brought enough balance to proceedings to keep me interested, and I had migraine attacks both yesterday and today which is sending me all over the shop.

I should probably wait till my brain recovers before posting more but I am out of my mind with boredom right now so I probably won't be able to resist for even mere seconds, let alone hours.
 
So they might as well launch attacks here... mightn't they?
Do you doubt that the type of people who travel to the ME to fight there would have any hesitation in doing similar here anyway if they had the organisational means, motivation, and training?
 
Theres another reason this worries me though. When i heard about this yesterday i was happy (or at least didnt care) t their death, as they are war criminals, killing prisoners for isis snuff videos is a war crime, they have almost certainly raped and beheaded people too. Fuck them.

Apologies that once again you provide the perfect quote for me to use, this response is by no means directed only at you, and not at all at you in some sentences.

I think its quite possible not to care about the individuals killed, and yet still shout loudly about serious concerns regarding the action that killed them.

I don't think people had a problem doing that when the USA was approaching the war on terror with all the subtlety we expected. That it was unsurprising was also no reason not to bother condemning it. And I don't recall those with serious concerns being dismissed as hand-wringing Guardian readers.

I am uncomfortable with assumptions about individual members of ISIS. I think its ok to characterise ISIS as having committed war crimes. And a degree of guilt by association seems reasonable. But I'm really not sure its a good idea to apply the label of war criminal to every single member of ISIS individually - did we do that with the Nazi's?
 
Well my flounce didn't last long. Pickman's model brought enough balance to proceedings to keep me interested, and I had migraine attacks both yesterday and today which is sending me all over the shop.

I should probably wait till my brain recovers before posting more but I am out of my mind with boredom right now so I probably won't be able to resist for even mere seconds, let alone hours.

Sorry to hear this, hope you feel better soon.
 
I am uncomfortable with assumptions about individual members of ISIS. I think its ok to characterise ISIS as having committed war crimes. And a degree of guilt by association seems reasonable. But I'm really not sure its a good idea to apply the label of war criminal to every single member of ISIS individually - did we do that with the Nazi's?

I know what you're saying, but for Europeans travelling to join Isis they can be in absolutely no douby what they are joining, I mean Isis are the ones making all the videos boasting about what they're up to. This is not conscription and no one can pretend they didn't know.

These two guys were dead men walking as soon as they made that video and didn't bother to mask up. They were goading the UK government and security services, it was always going to end this way and they probably knew it as well.
 
Apologies that once again you provide the perfect quote for me to use, this response is by no means directed only at you, and not at all at you in some sentences.

I think its quite possible not to care about the individuals killed, and yet still shout loudly about serious concerns regarding the action that killed them.

I don't think people had a problem doing that when the USA was approaching the war on terror with all the subtlety we expected. That it was unsurprising was also no reason not to bother condemning it. And I don't recall those with serious concerns being dismissed as hand-wringing Guardian readers.

I am uncomfortable with assumptions about individual members of ISIS. I think its ok to characterise ISIS as having committed war crimes. And a degree of guilt by association seems reasonable. But I'm really not sure its a good idea to apply the label of war criminal to every single member of ISIS individually - did we do that with the Nazi's?

No thats not what im saying at all. not every single one, as some are conscripted, or at least economically conscripted, and forced to fight. i talked about this a few pages ago when there was that ypg video about the guy from raqqa who was being yelled at but seemed terrified and not capable of a great deal, and Ive also talked about reasons that the sunni population in those areas might support them. They have set up social services, they are kicking assads arse, etc. So a lot of people who might despise them might still think they are the 'least bad' option.

but the foreign fighters i would say say in all likelihood have probably committed such acts, there has been research done where local isis members or members of jabhat al nusra have been uncomfortable at what's been done by the foreigners. I would assume that foreign fighters have probably done that sort of thing yes especially if they're highly ranked enough to appear in any videos. Have they all taken part in war crimes? Maybe not but they're all complicit and when they went to syria, probably knew exactly what they were joining.

ETA: And as far as the nazis go, there's a difference between a conscript army (as is happening in some IS held areas now) and people who willingly want to do it. Thats why whatever i think of the very imperfect system of allied justice after the war there was a distinction made between the SS and the Wehrmacht for example
 
I think it's interesting and telling that some radicals on here are actually saying they wanted to State to engage some avenue of 'legal process' here instead.

Scratch the surface of an 'anarchist' and you often find an outraged Guardian reader underneath... :D

Yeah what kind of anarchist would be the opposed to the idea that the executive branch of government can kill with total impunity and without even a shred of transparency or oversight?

I enjoy baiting playschool anarchist FAQ annakisseds as much as the next man but pickmans isn't one of them and this is pretty desperate.
 
I'll ignore the connotations of using 'shameful', but what do you mean about the difference in positions from ten years ago?

card-predator_yemen.jpg
 
Do you doubt that the type of people who travel to the ME to fight there would have any hesitation in doing similar here anyway if they had the organisational means, motivation, and training?
They only need a garden tool or gerry can of petrol. Not as glamorous for most minded. Thankfully.
 
Yeah what kind of anarchist would be the opposed to the idea that the executive branch of government can kill with total impunity and without even a shred of transparency or oversight?

I enjoy baiting playschool anarchist FAQ annakisseds as much as the next man but pickmans isn't one of them and this is pretty desperate.

It wasn't aimed at Pickman's, and wasn't a comment on the opposition to the drone strikes per se, but more what people were suggesting in their place which mostly seemed to be a liberal and Statist appeal to the 'rule of law' and human rights.

It just never ceases to surprise me when something like this happens a large number of radicals that would describe themselves as anarchists or anti-Statists suddenly discover a new found faith in and love for liberal State administered justice.
 
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but the foreign fighters i would say say in all likelihood have probably committed such acts, there has been research done where local isis members or members of jabhat al nusra have been uncomfortable at what's been done by the foreigners. I would assume that foreign fighters have probably done that sort of thing yes especially if they're highly ranked enough to appear in any videos. Have they all taken part in war crimes? Maybe not but they're all complicit and when they went to syria, probably knew exactly what they were joining.

No, I'm not going to adopt this definition of war criminal, not under any circumstances. It's too important a concept for assumptions.

Anyway if wikipedia is accurate then that turns into a never-ending loop anyway, because this is listed as an example of a war crime:

  • killing or punishing spies or other persons convicted of war crimes without a fair trial
 
No, I'm not going to adopt this definition of war criminal, not under any circumstances. It's too important a concept for assumptions.

Anyway if wikipedia is accurate then that turns into a never-ending loop anyway, because this is listed as an example of a war crime:

  • killing or punishing spies or other persons convicted of war crimes without a fair trial

Thats what i thought.

I don't like or agree with what's gone on i just find it a bit hard to have any sympathy or be overly outraged, the problem is with all of the things you and others have mentioned in terms of the precedent it sets and the fact it looks like the situation is heading for a major escalation, and the propaganda coup it gives IS
 
It wasn't aimed at Pickman's, and wasn't a comment on the opposition to the drone strikes per se, but more what people were suggesting in their place which mostly seemed to be a liberal and Statist appeal to the 'rule of law' and human rights.

It just never ceases to surprise me when something like this happens a large number of radicals that would describe themselves as anarchists or anti-Statists suddenly discover a new found faith in and love for liberal State administered justice.

You don't have to be a supporter of liberal, state-administered justice to be alarmed by the state so readily shrugging off the 'rules' which it previously claimed constrained its actions.
 
You don't have to be a supporter of liberal, state-administered justice to be alarmed by the state so readily shrugging off the 'rules' which it previously claimed constrained its actions.

No, I never said there was no cause for concern about this happening, I did however say I think it's inconsistent, illogical, and actually bolsters State power (and so makes things like this more likely to happen in the long term) to then use that criticism of the events to call for a more humane and liberal justice policy, which has seemed to be the thrust of many on here (and elsewhere's) point.
 
It wasn't aimed at Pickman's, and wasn't a comment on the opposition to the drone strikes per se, but more what people were suggesting in their place which mostly seemed to be a liberal and Statist appeal to the 'rule of law' and human rights.

It just never ceases to surprise me when something like this happens a large number of radicals that would describe themselves as anarchists or anti-Statists suddenly discover a new found faith in and love for liberal State administered justice.

With respect that's a very simplistic reading of it. I think the point is that when it comes to executions any accountability and transparency/oversight - even heavily flawed liberal forms - is better than unilateral executive action without any kind of transparency or public/legislative oversight whatsoever.

My personal view in this case is that I don't give a fuck either way though.
 
With respect that's a very simplistic reading of it. I think the point is that when it comes to executions any accountability and transparency/oversight - even heavily flawed liberal forms - is better than unilateral executive action without any kind of transparency or public/legislative oversight whatsoever.

My personal view in this case is that I don't give a fuck either way though.

Thats my position too tbh.
 
it'd be weird to have a drone pilot up in court (before the inevitable exhonouration and dismissal of all wrongdoing of etc). Like something from the future.
 
The BBC article 'when is it legal to kill your own citizens?' has a section of particular interest.

Writing in the Guardian, legal commentator Joshua Rozenberg argues that the attack "appears to be within the law". International law, like English law, doesn't require that you have to wait for an aggressor to strike before retaliating so long as the action is proportionate and necessary, he says. Under Article 51 you have to show that an armed attack is occurring or is imminent.

The US used Article 51 to justify the killing of American-born Anwar al-Awlaki, a a radical American Muslim cleric of Yemeni descent who was linked to attacks and plots around the world, in a US drone strike in Yemen in 2011.

Following a failed attempt to blow up an airliner as it flew into Detroit in 2009, US President Barack Obama authorised the Central Intelligence Agency to kill Awlaki.

His family said he was not a terrorist and launched a legal challenge to stop the US executing one of its citizens without any judicial process. In a legal opinion published after Awlaki's killing, US Assistant Attorney General David Barron cited a 2006 Israeli Supreme Court decision that targeted killings were a legitimate form of self defence.

Phillipe Sands QC, professor of law at University College London, told the BBC's Today programme that the British government's use of the Article 51 line of argument represented a "new direction" for the UK, which had previously treated cases like this as matters for criminal rather than international law. Now, he said, the US "warlike paradigm" had been adopted instead.

"Planning a future attack at some far away place has never been good enough in international law on the use of self-defence - it has to be imminent and on that we need the evidence," he said. He added that the attorney general needed to make a statement to clarify the legality of the situation.

Who, What, Why: When is it legal to kill your own citizens? - BBC News
 
Do you doubt that the type of people who travel to the ME to fight there would have any hesitation in doing similar here anyway if they had the organisational means, motivation, and training?

I am musing about the likelihood of the choices they may make. No more.
 
This is the ypg video i was on about elbows etc



Nothing compared to what daesh have done obviously but its fairly uncomfortable viewing to say the least

And the ypg are probably the side that have largely acted with the most decency

I dont want people here to get the idea that im in favour of any escalation as im not , not least as it can push otherwise decent people to do fairly awful, or at least desperate, things
 
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...and the propaganda coup it gives IS

what propaganda coup?

IS haven't won a new town, or cut off an enemy, or secured recognition from a previous enemy, or blunted an enemy offensive. their conmmunications (organisation?) have been shown to be thoughly compromised and at least one important cog in one of their important wheels - and some knuckle-dragging nobodies - have been killed in the middle of their heartland at a time of their enemies choosing and with no chance of reply. moreover a previous safer place for them has been shown to be less safe, and potential recruits from another country have been shown the potential price of fighting for IS.

that, i'd suggest, is a propaganda coup they can well do without.

the only way this can become a propaganda coup for IS is if Britain decides to make it one through tying itself in knots over angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin legal definitions that no one outside the media and political bubble gives a flea-sized shit about, and i suspect that lots inside that bubble don't give a flea-sized shit about, but feel they have to go through the motions...
 
The propaganda coup of them looking like martyrs and promoting the image of themselves as 'the only' side thats 'not collaborating' with the west, which given how many people have gone syria already could be something we could do without. Suddenly they/their fighters look like victims, not to the general public but to people on the way to being radicalised over here who may be in two minds over it. Did you read the link i put up about awlaki a few pages ago? He may be more influential in death than he ever was in life

Not that im particularly bothered mind you because IS are such cunts. I find it fairly hard to summon up much sympathy. ETA I dont like it but im not going to lose a great deal of sleep over it, im more worried about whatever the entry of more countries into the war will mean in terms of civilian loss of life, and the undermining of assad (who to be clear is a cunt) without much in his place except chaos and various varieties of islamist
 
Course its good propaganda for teh IS

on a general level, its keeps them in the public eye( not that they need much if you look at the Daily mail site for IS related toss)

On a specific level, it give creedence to the idea that their footsoldiers are so valued, much of a threat and evoke so much fear in the west, that they are willing to spend stupid money to attack them thouands of miles away
 
Course its good propaganda for teh IS

on a general level, its keeps them in the public eye( not that they need much if you look at the Daily mail site for IS related toss)

On a specific level, it give creedence to the idea that their footsoldiers are so valued, much of a threat and evoke so much fear in the west, that they are willing to spend stupid money to attack them thouands of miles away

Ive developed a real hatred of the mail in regards to this. They constantly repost their propaganda.
 
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