The Islamic state

[butchersapron]

From jan 8th

Jenan Moussa @jenanmoussa

Abu Ibrahim @raqqa_mcr, anti ISIS activist in Raqqa, already tweeted on Jan 8 that #Jordan pilot was burned to deathpic.twitter.com/XV25OSw7MY

 

[Patteran]

From jan 8th

Same source who tweeted about the attempted rescue on 2/3 January - this possible rescue attempt's now being linked to the date of the killing.

 

[8ball]

So what is happening here iyo?

Do you mean specifically in the case of the boy in the video? I wasn't sure whether you just meant cases of kidnappings like this when you said 'something strange is happening in people's minds'.

 

[butchersapron]

Same source who tweeted about the attempted rescue on 2/3 January - this possible rescue attempt's now being linked to the date of the killing.

Oh yeah, forgot about that.

 

[phildwyer]

Do you mean specifically in the case of the boy in the video?

Yes.

 

[flypanam]

The Janissaries have always puzzled me. I mean, they rip a boy away from his family, take him to a faraway foreign land, subject him to brutal treatment and discipline... and he rewards them with absolute, unbending loyalty marked above all by invariable personal heroism in battle.

Strange innit. And no, I can't imagine it working on me. But it certainly did work historically, and it seems to have worked on this lad. And ISIS are apparently trying to make it work on thousands of others. Don't we have a problem?

My reading of Janissaries, is one that my wife shares and she studied the subject for her masters. I believe that they were taken, sometimes forcible and sometimes as tribute. They were brought to schools where they were well treated, treated much better than the local population and then as their 'Talent' flourished they we're then specialised into different branches of the corps. But the important aspect was that as foreigners, their social position depended on the Sultan, and he in turn depended on them to keep the natives in check.

Anyhow, they were not quite the loyal and obedient force they are supposed to be. Numerous rebellions and in Bosnia a complete disregard for the Sultan's rule.

Not that it ended well for them.

I don't think you can make the compassion with a video of a child who is still impressionable and utterly cowed.

 

[8ball]

Yes.

These are normal psychological processes that happen under extreme conditions.

It won't be just the rationale I mentioned before - you also have the enhancement of suggestibility that you get with extreme pressure and IS are also using techniques that religious cults (no shit Sherlock moment obviously) and even some salesmen use - isolation from normal contacts, not giving them breaks alone to think, relentless repetition etc. etc.

With persistence, time and the right techniques you can fundamentally change people, the younger they are the better.
It's nothing new or strange.

I agree it's unsettling if you're not used to seeing it, though.

 

[butchersapron]

Same source who tweeted about the attempted rescue on 2/3 January - this possible rescue attempt's now being linked to the date of the killing.

Bit more on that.

Abu Ward a-Raqawi, the alias of the man who wrote the tweet, told Syria Direct Wednesday about how he came to learn of al-Kasasbeh's fate in January.

A member of the Raqqa is Being Slaughtered Silently campaign inside the city of A-Raqqa was present “when a group of the organization's members were awaiting an emir...and when the emir entered he told the fighters about the execution and how it occurred—this was January 8.”

A-Raqawi added that the site of the execution was near a former political security branch that IS turned into a headquarters, where 30 women from IS's al-Khansaa brigade were killed by a coalition airstrike.

“IS took revenge on behalf of its fighters alone,” a-Raqawi said, “the opposite of what's it's saying about civilians.”

 

[Pickman's model]

I make an exception for ex-public schoolies. I've never liked poshboys, it's a prejudice of mine. So piss off poshboy.

so you have no problem behaving in bad taste when it's you chucking the insults round, as you began round page 108. ok. but you also have been remarkably reticent about questions asked eg when the jordanian army - not air force - was last in syria. you've been shuffling your position so much it's ridiculous. incidentally, as anyone with more than a cursory knowledge of janissaries would know, it's not like the turks sent round press gangs and rounded up boys at random. it was a much more structured process, and one which attracted volunteers. although not universally popular, the janissary process was not all people being ripped from their families - those taken under the devshirme were able to stay in touch - and i am surprised someone with such an acquaintance with turkey as you boast is apparently unaware of much of the history of the force. you can find out more here.

 

[phildwyer]

I don't think you can make the compassion with a video of a child who is still impressionable and utterly cowed.

All Janissaries must have been like that once.

 

[frogwoman]

All Janissaries must have been like that once.

Eh? I didnt write that.

 

[frogwoman]

It's not really like baghadis mob making kids watch beheadings and practice on dolls.

 

[Pickman's model]

Eh? I didnt write that.

you will do

 

[phildwyer]

i think in many ways ISIS is a product of postmodernity

You took the word out of my mouth. I was about to use it in the Janissary discussion.

To the modern mind, the idea of forced conversion is anathema. It's an oxymoron. With the modern belief in the freedom of the individual will, it is hard to imagine being forced to believe anything.

But in the postmodern era, when the autonomous individual seems less credible, the idea of forced conversion seems plausible. As it also seemed plausible before the modern era, during the apogee of Islam.

ISIS obviously believe in forced conversion, so I guess we'll find out if it still works pretty soon. Better hope it doesn't...

 

[flypanam]

All Janissaries must have been like that once.

Nope, I don't think so.

Pickman's post #3429 expresses it quite well.

 

[phildwyer]

Eh? I didnt write that.

Corrected now.

 

[phildwyer]

Pickman's post #3429 expresses it quite well.

Not really. There was a lot of resistance to the devirme, even outright rebellions. Circumstances varied widely during its 400-year history across a huge, multi-ethnic empire, and so did attitudes towards it.

However there can be no doubt that, advantageous as it undoubtedly was for many of those recruited, it was a system based ultimately on coercion.

 

[8ball]

To the modern mind, the idea of forced conversion is anathema. It's an oxymoron. With the modern belief in the freedom of the individual will, it is hard to imagine being forced to believe anything.

You appear to be conflating the forced expression of assent to a belief <eg. those fighter pilots in the first Gulf war> with the engineering of a change in actual belief <which the child in the vid seemed to be in the middle of> when you say 'forced conversion'.

 

[phildwyer]

It's not really like baghadis mob making kids watch beheadings and practice on dolls.

You think Janissary training consisted of needlework and flower-arranging?

 

[phildwyer]

You appear to be conflating the forced expression of assent to a belief <eg. those fighter pilots in the first Gulf war> with the engineering of a change in actual belief <which the child in the vid seemed to be in the middle of> when you say 'forced conversion'.

No, I'm talking only about a forced change in actual belief.

 

[Pickman's model]

Not really. There was a lot of resistance to the devirme, even outright rebellions. Circumstances varied widely during its 400-year history across a huge, multi-ethnic empire, and so did attitudes towards it.

However there can be no doubt that, advantageous as it undoubtedly was for many of those recruited, it was a system based ultimately on coercion.

as per my link the levy mainly affected the balkans and later anatolia. it's not like it was a major source of contention in egypt or arabia or libya. obviously it was "ultimately" based on coercion as it wasn't flower arrangers who went round the villages collecting their new recruits.

 

[8ball]

No, I'm talking only about a forced change in actual belief.

Ok, fair enough. 'Forced conversion' gets used to describe both practices (and other practices too such as a kind of 'administrative forced conversion' where someone just officially redefines the religion or ethnicity of a group of people' - I'm going to have to dig up an example now, aren't I? ).

 

[phildwyer]

My reading of Janissaries, is one that my wife shares and she studied the subject for her masters. I believe that they were taken, sometimes forcible and sometimes as tribute. They were brought to schools where they were well treated, treated much better than the local population and then as their 'Talent' flourished they we're then specialised into different branches of the corps.

The Janissaries were slaves. No-one wants their children enslaved. Hence this famous Balkan lament:

"Be damned, O Emperor, be thrice damned
For the evil you have done and the evil you do.
You catch and shackle the old and the archpriests
In order to take the children as Janissaries.
Their parents weep and their sisters and brothers too
And I cry until it pains me;
As long as I live I shall cry,
For last year it was my son and this year my brother."

I admit that the Janissaries themselves evidently felt very differently about it. To me, that's very strange. Even stranger when it happens today.

 

[phildwyer]

as per my link the levy mainly affected the balkans and later anatolia. it's not like it was a major source of contention in egypt or arabia or libya.

That's right. Have you ever wondered why?

I'll tell you why. It's because this system only worked on converts to Islam. I believe I'm right in saying that it has never worked in any other circumstances.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's right. Have you ever wondered why?

I'll tell you why. It's because this system only worked on converts to Islam. I believe I'm right in saying that it has never worked in any other circumstances.

you haven't read the link have you

it started off like that but then later on sons of janissaries (ie muslims) became eligible to join. as did free men. and some muslims in the balkans demanded the right to take part in the devshirme.

so, in summary, believe what you want but you're wrong.

 

[phildwyer]

it started off like that but then later on sons of janissaries (ie muslims) became eligible to join. as did free men. and some muslims in the balkans demanded the right to take part in the devshirme.

I know. And that was precisely when the Janissary system ceased to work, leading to numerous rebellions and the ultimate destruction of the Empire.

QED.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

That's right. Have you ever wondered why?

I'll tell you why. It's because this system only worked on converts to Islam. I believe I'm right in saying that it has never worked in any other circumstances.

In the video you posted is that boy a convert? Have all muslims become potential Jannissaries; and if so how?

Louis MacNeice

 

[ViolentPanda]

We seem to have examples popping up on this thread easily enough.

When you, (as a child especially, but not necessarily always) are being unjustly punished by a moralistic person or persons who have total power over you, your choices pretty much boil down to "they are bad, and are punishing me unfairly" and "I am bad and am being justly punished by these good people and their reasons are good".

Since they have such massive power over your fate, the second choice is often less painful to live with over a sustained period.

Ontological comfort lies in conformity. It's not about "good" or "bad", it's about people seeking to conform in a situation where non-conformity equates to punishment. It's rational behaviour.

 

[phildwyer]

Have all muslims become potential Jannissaries

Obviously not all. Equally obviously, a surprising amount. A very surprising amount under the circumstances.

and if so how?

That's the question innit. I wish I knew. Not by any means that the modern world understands.

 

[phildwyer]

It's rational behaviour.

It's self-interested behavior.

But only capitalists identify self-interest with rationality. How can a forced conversion be rational? It can't.