The Islamic state

[phildwyer]

Only some and a little some at that; as I said I think the potential number of recruits to ISIS watching the video is small. This is a very different thing from being confronted with ISIS as an occupier where the immediate incentives to co-operate/support/join would be much greater and more widely responded to.

No argument with the last sentence, but I don't think anyone knows how many potential recruits there are for ISIS. Personally I think it's in the billions. There's something unusual happening in many people's minds at the moment.

For example, have you seen this:

 

[phildwyer]

The kurds (whatever that means) says Phil, questionong the authenticity of an organized and self-identifying group of people speaking a common language across the western-drawn national boundaries that are clearly much more important and real. Twat.

I meant "to which group of Kurds do you refer." Obviously. Idiot.

 

[phildwyer]

The (present) declared faith of the population(s) of those territories that ISIS have won is irrelevant to this exemplary demonstration of barbarity. Yes, one of Al-Kasasbeh's 'crimes' was being a combatant against their caliphate, but it is wrong to ignore the 'theological' basis for nature of his death sentence. The fact ISIS included in the video an edict from Ibn Taymiyya’s 'jurisprudence' makes explicit the crime of apostasy.

Yes, they're in the process of converting the population to Wahabbism, and they don't mind doing so by the sword, and this is part of that.

 

[Patteran]

"The international community" suddenly becomes an abstract concept. Jordan and Lebanon are carrying a massive load. How much help are they getting?
http://syrianrefugees.eu/

That link seems to be the EU's response - an informative, well-researched, well-funded research document. 'Any tents?' 'No, soz, but feel the quality of this research'.

Two very different approaches, presumably dictated by circumstance - Turkey has constructed enormous camps, while Lebanon's response is apparently civic, housing people in family homes, empty buildings, etc. A million people, each - and 600,000 into Jordan. Europe's response is a fuckin disgrace.

 

[Flavour]

No argument with the last sentence, but I don't think anyone knows how many potential recruits there are for ISIS. Personally I think it's in the billions. There's something unusual happening in many people's minds at the moment.

For example, have you seen this:

ISIS fanboy

 

[phildwyer]

ISIS fanboy

But don't you see how completely pathetic that is? How it only reflects upon you?

 

[butchersapron]

That link seems to be the EU's response - an informative, well-researched, well-funded research document. 'Any tents?' 'No, soz, but feel the quality of this research'.

Two very different approaches, presumably dictated by circumstance - Turkey has constructed enormous camps, while Lebanon's response is apparently civic, housing people in family homes, empty buildings, etc. A million people, each - and 600,000 into Jordan. Europe's response is a fuckin disgrace.

Most of the kurdish refugee stuff is non-turksh state funded. The stuff along the syrian border,yeah that's them though. You can tell that by the turkish officials facilitating ISIS and other such groups recruitment and policing of the camps. The same way the PFLP does for assad in the Damascus camps. Yes, the european states response has been pathetic - almost as if they don't want to alert people in need.

( i have a good piece on the tensions the syrian refugee situation is bring out and how it's being used as a tool for irredentist claims - give us a sec to find it)

edit:sorry can't find it. Will look again later. Was a really good piece.

 

[Flavour]

You are the one saying ridiculous things, for example, that ISIS have potentially billions of recruits, that they are a really powerful army, that they can't be stopped in mosul, blah blah blah, you're in awe of them, you have a fucking hard on for them.

 

[bluescreen]

Most of the kurdish refugee stuff is non-turksh state funded. The stuff along the syrian border,yeah that's them though. You can tell that by the turkish officials facilitating ISIS and other such groups recruitment and policing of the camps. The same way the PFLP does for assad in the Damascus camps. Yes, the european states response has been pathetic - almost as if they don't want to alert people in need.

( i have a good piece on the tensions the syrian refugee situation is bring out and how it's being used as a tool for irredentist claims - give us a sec to find it)

Thanks, butchers. I can't imagine the tensions. How those tensions are being played.

Frogwoman's post of the Peter Neuman talk is well worth listening to so I'm reposting it here.
http://www.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/videoAndAudio/channels/publicLecturesAndEvents/player.aspx?id=2845

 

[past caring]

You have a fucking hard on for them.

The wonder that is viagra.

 

[Bakunin]

Making a captured Jordanian pilot walk through the debris of an arial bombardment, dressing him in orange, placing him in a cage and setting light to him sends out many powerful messages. These are two of them:

• It tells the west - where the orange jump suits behind bars have their home - that we, ISIS, can inflict more savage suffering if that is the route you want to go down.

• But much more more importantly it tells the muslim world, especially the arab muslim world, be terrified, this is the cost of treachery.

They are both messages about the past; they are in part about revenge for past actions. But they are also very much about the future. They are threats designed to change attitudes and behaviours; the cruelty of the burning shows where ISIS wants to apply the most pressure.

Louis MacNeice

And Jordan just executed two Iraqi's with suspected links to Al Q'aida by way of a reprisal. The tit for tat reprisals look like being a part of this ongoing mess.

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...y-group-for-more-than-10-months-10022291.html

Isis captors 'didnt even have the quran'

 

[8ball]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...y-group-for-more-than-10-months-10022291.html

Isis captors 'didnt even have the quran'

I wouldn't expect Guantanamo guards to have the Bible close by either tbf.

 

[butchersapron]

I wouldn't expect Guantanamo guards to have the Bible close by either tbf.

Were they there as religious police?

 

[phildwyer]

You are the one saying ridiculous things, for example, that ISIS have potentially billions of recruits, that they are a really powerful army, that they can't be stopped in mosul, blah blah blah, you're in awe of them, you have a fucking hard on for them.

I don't follow the last bit, it sounds like you might be a weirdo quite frankly.

But I do admit that I'm stunned by the success of ISIS. Only a fool would not be. And only a fool would deny that something strange is happening in the minds of many people, and only a fool would suggest that they do not have a powerful army, and only a fool would suggest that they can be driven out of Mosul easily or soon.

Are you a fool as well as a weirdo, Flavour?

 

[8ball]

Were they there as religious police?

Clearly not.

 

[butchersapron]

Clearly not.

So it's a shit comparison to make.

 

[8ball]

So it's a shit comparison to make.

<edit for grouchiness>

I answered your question with a different 'they' to your interpretation (and intention).

I figured you'd straighten that one out.

 

[frogwoman]

I wouldn't expect Guantanamo guards to have the Bible close by either tbf.

Bit weird for a group which claims to be building a caliphate based on islamic law. As far as I know guantanamo bay guards werent there to defend 'christendom' and create a worldwide christian state as their stated goal based on biblical law.

 

[likesfish]

That link seems to be the EU's response - an informative, well-researched, well-funded research document. 'Any tents?' 'No, soz, but feel the quality of this research'.

Two very different approaches, presumably dictated by circumstance - Turkey has constructed enormous camps, while Lebanon's response is apparently civic, housing people in family homes, empty buildings, etc. A million people, each - and 600,000 into Jordan. Europe's response is a fuckin disgrace.

The uk has spent nearly £700 million in the region on emergancy aid in the region inculding text books for all the child refugees in lebannon doubt a massive sealift of refugees to the UK would be politcally viable for any party at the present though a 100 families needing urgent medical treatment already got katy hopkin types whining about health tourists

 

[phildwyer]

Most of the kurdish refugee stuff is non-turksh state funded. The stuff along the syrian border,yeah that's them though. You can tell that by the turkish officials facilitating ISIS and other such groups recruitment and policing of the camps.

Don't imagine that the refugees are staying in the camps. Most of them have already fanned out throughout Turkey. Hundreds of thousands of them are in Istanbul, begging in the streets and camping in the parks. Quite apart from the practical problems, this raises all sorts of security concerns. It seems reasonable to suppose for example that their numbers have been infiltrated by both ISIS and the PKK. This is a problem that will stay with Turkey for decades. And Turkey is the least affected of any middle eastern state other than Israel. I see no end to this conflict for at least a generation.

 

[butchersapron]

The uk has spent nearly £700 million in the region on emergancy aid in the region inculding text books for all the child refugees in lebannon doubt a massive sealift of refugees to the UK would be politcally viable for any party at the present though a 100 families needing urgent medical treatment already got katy hopkin types whining about health tourists

Can you source and define that figure please.

 

[Patteran]

No argument with the last sentence, but I don't think anyone knows how many potential recruits there are for ISIS. Personally I think it's in the billions. There's something unusual happening in many people's minds at the moment.

For example, have you seen this:

A terrified, brutalised child expressing misplaced gratitude to tormentors for not killing him after all. Understandable, but not in itself illustrative of a trend. Even if there's a deliberate strategy to produce this effect & release confused kids back into their communities, I'm sure there's a thousand other released prisoners with different responses.

 

[8ball]

Bit weird for a group which claims to be building a caliphate based on islamic law. As far as I know guantanamo bay guards werent there to defend 'christendom' and create a worldwide christian state as their stated goal based on biblical law.

A good many Americans understood the conflict on terms very similar to what you mention, members of the military among them (the extent of the ambitions, border-wise are far more extensive in terms of the Americans than IS too). It's no secret that the most enthusiastically violent enforcers of any stated religious conflict don't pay much mind to the subtleties of their own religion either. It's an excuse to behave like thugs and that's enough. I see nothing surprising about any of it.

All publicly stated aims amount to little more than propaganda (internal and external) whichever side you look at.

 

[goldenecitrone]

ISIS fanboy

Looks like an acute case of Stockholm Syndrome to me.

 

[phildwyer]

A terrified, brutalised child expressing misplaced gratitude to tormentors for not killing him after all.

Except that he doesn't express any such gratitude. Does he?

Listen carefully to what he actually says. Houston we have a problem.

 

[frogwoman]

A good many Americans understood the conflict on terms very similar to what you mention, members of the military among them (the extent of the ambitions, border-wise are far more extensive in terms of the Americans than IS too). It's no secret that the most enthusiastically violent enforcers of any stated religious conflict don't pay much mind to the subtleties of their own religion either. It's an excuse to behave like thugs and that's enough. I see nothing surprising about any of it.

All publicly stated aims amount to little more than propaganda (internal and external) whichever side you look at.

Not even GW bush claimed that he was on a mission to build a worldwide christian state based on biblical law. Abu Bakr al Baghdadi claims he is building a caliphate, that is where ISIS seeks its legitimacy from. ISIS claim to be basing everything on the Koran.

There are atheist, jewish, catholic and probably even muslim guantanamo guards.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Except that he doesn't express any such gratitude. Does he?

Listen carefully to what he actually says. Houston we have a problem.

Doesn't he...how can you be so sure? A child says that a group of people who beat and abused him and others, who indoctrinated them, who held the power of life and death over them are right. I don't find that surprising. I also don't find it convincing or even persuasive evidence of billions of potential recruits to ISIS...but you do.

Louis MacNeice

 

[phildwyer]

Looks like an acute case of Stockholm Syndrome to me.

You know what he looks like to me? A Janissary. And I greatly fear that's exactly what he is.

 

[frogwoman]

A good many Americans understood the conflict on terms very similar to what you mention, members of the military among them (the extent of the ambitions, border-wise are far more extensive in terms of the Americans than IS too). It's no secret that the most enthusiastically violent enforcers of any stated religious conflict don't pay much mind to the subtleties of their own religion either. It's an excuse to behave like thugs and that's enough. I see nothing surprising about any of it.

All publicly stated aims amount to little more than propaganda (internal and external) whichever side you look at.

Which is why im saying that while motivations for joining ISIS are varied, for many people it's more to do with sadism than religion or western foreign policies.