The Islamic state

[8ball]

Not even GW bush claimed that he was on a mission to build a worldwide christian state based on biblical law.

If he had, this would not have affected the likelihood of Gitmo guards walking around with Bibles in their pockets one jot.

 

[phildwyer]

A child says that a group of people who beat and abused him and others, who indoctrinated them, who held the power of life and death over them are right. I don't find that surprising.

I find it very surprising. If anyone had done that to me when I was fourteen, I would have conceived a lifelong, ineradicable hatred for them and everything they represented.

He has responded very differently. Historically, kidnapped and converted children have always been Islam's best soldiers. We have a major problem here.

 

[frogwoman]

If he had, this would not have affected the likelihood of Gitmo guards walking around with Bibles in their pockets one jot.

But the entire point is that ISIS claims to derive its legitimacy from religion, that they are building an 'islamic state' for all the worlds muslims, - the 'islamic state' - that's why they are killing people for not covering up, selling alcohol, etc. The Obama and even the bush administration did not make any such claims about guantanamo despite their pandering to religious fanatics, they did not and could not claim that they were building a biblical state for all the worlds christians.

The fact that jihadi john etc dont appear to give a shit about the koran betrays the fact that sadism is likely to be more of a motivating factor than religion

 

[Patteran]

The uk has spent nearly £700 million in the region on emergancy aid in the region inculding text books for all the child refugees in lebannon doubt a massive sealift of refugees to the UK would be politcally viable for any party at the present though a 100 families needing urgent medical treatment already got katy hopkin types whining about health tourists

Which is sound, & I'm sure £700 million has made a positive impact on Syrian refugees in Lebanon & elsewhere - but presumably the point of the funding is to keep them there, keep them in the camps near the borders, keep them away from Turkey's cities & resorts & Europe's borders. Someone else's problems - while less than a hundred people have been allowed into Britain, according to this in the Guardian.

 

[DotCommunist]

there is the point that you are supposed to treat the book itself with a lot of care, so would that mean not hauling it around prisoner camps\battlegrounds etc ?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I find it very surprising. If anyone had done that to me when I was fourteen, I would have conceived a lifelong, ineradicable hatred for them and everything they represented.

He has responded very differently. Historically, kidnapped and converted children have always been Islam's best soldiers. We have a major problem here.

Tells me much more about you than about ISIS.

Louis MacNeice

 

[8ball]

But the entire point is that ISIS claims to derive its legitimacy from religion, that they are building an 'islamic state' for all the worlds muslims, - the 'islamic state' - that's why they are killing people for not covering up, selling alcohol, etc. The Obama and even the bush administration did not make any such claims about guantanamo despite their pandering to religious fanatics, they did not and could not claim that they were building a biblical state for all the worlds christians.

True, but IS have been around a while (with previous name changes) and only stated their aims in these terms fairly recently (middle of last year, I think).

I don't think it makes sense to try to understand them as equivalent in any way to the Inquisition or similar groups where the religion and related cultural artefacts were intrinsic to the nature of the organization (though they were of course political outfits too).

 

[8ball]

Tells me much more about you than about ISIS.

What Phil outlines are the only two choices you really have when in that position as a child.
Without at least going through something similar, I don't think it's easy to tell which route any of us would take.

 

[phildwyer]

Tells me much more about you than about ISIS.

The Janissaries have always puzzled me. I mean, they rip a boy away from his family, take him to a faraway foreign land, subject him to brutal treatment and discipline... and he rewards them with absolute, unbending loyalty marked above all by invariable personal heroism in battle.

Strange innit. And no, I can't imagine it working on me. But it certainly did work historically, and it seems to have worked on this lad. And ISIS are apparently trying to make it work on thousands of others. Don't we have a problem?

 

[frogwoman]

They were calling themselves the Islamic State in Iraq by 2006.

 

[butchersapron]

True, but IS have been around a while (with previous name changes) and only stated their aims in these terms fairly recently (middle of last year, I think).

I don't think it makes sense to try to understand them as equivalent in any way to the Inquisition or similar groups where the religion and related cultural artefacts were intrinsic to the nature of the organization (though they were of course political outfits too).

Hmm. So it would be a shit comparison to make to compare them with say, gitmo guards. I agree. I think i said so and got sneered at.

Only recently stated their aims? They were a split - a split on the basis of their stated public aims - around 10 years ago. Their various names being a bit of a clue as to what they are about.

 

[8ball]

The Janissaries have always puzzled me. I mean, they rip a boy away from his family, take him to a faraway foreign land, subject him to brutal treatment and discipline... and he rewards them with absolute, unbending loyalty marked above all by invariable personal heroism in battle.

Strange innit. And no, I can't imagine it working on me. But it certainly did work historically, and it seems to have worked on this lad. And ISIS are apparently trying to make it work on thousands of others. Don't we have a problem?

It's not strange at all, you just don't understand the psychology behind it.
If you can't imagine it working on you, you haven't had the kind of experiences that would tell you whether it work or not.

 

[butchersapron]

What Phil outlines are the only two choices you really have when in that position as a child.
Without at least going through something similar, I don't think it's easy to tell which route any of us would take.

I can think of others.

 

[bluescreen]

It's not strange at all, you just don't understand the psychology behind it.
If you can't imagine it working on you, you haven't had the kind of experiences that would tell you whether it work or not.

Lord's Resistance Army, frex. Admittedly, younger recruits.

 

[phildwyer]

It's not strange at all, you just don't understand the psychology behind it.
If you can't imagine it working on you, you haven't had the kind of experiences that would tell you whether it work or not.

I suspect that the truth (unpalatable as it may be) is that there is something about Islam, or perhaps about the convert's experience of Islam, that makes it work.

It hasn't worked anywhere else has it? I suppose one could make a glib comparison with the English public school system, but it's not really the same at all.

 

[8ball]

Hmm. So it would be a shit comparison to make to compare them with say, gitmo guards. I agree. I think i said so and got sneered at.

Yes they are completely unlike Gitmo guards in their shared indifference to the values they pretend to uphold. How awful.

Only recently stated their aims? They were a split - a split on the basis of their stated public aims - around 10 years ago. Their various names being a bit of a clue as to what they are about.

Islamic State in Iraq, for example. Their aims were fairly clear.

 

[phildwyer]

Lord's Resistance Army, frex. Admittedly, younger recruits.

Younger recruits, far smaller scale, no real way of telling how well it's working.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes they are completely unlike Gitmo guards in their shared indifference to the values they pretend to uphold. How awful.



Islamic State in Iraq, for example. Their aims were fairly clear.

Two bizzare lines.

Oh no are people naughty. They're just naughty rather than being naughty within a network of supporting ideological claims. Naughty people all alike.

So islamic state in iraq - established in 2006 and now ISIS - were fairly clear in their aims. ISIS weren't until last year?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

What Phil outlines are the only two choices you really have when in that position as a child.
Without at least going through something similar, I don't think it's easy to tell which route any of us would take.

No there are many other choices somewhere between complete adoption or complete rejection. But you are absolutely right there is no easy way of telling what choices we would make.

The point I was making to Phil was a different one relating to where he chose to place himself and all those 'kidnapped converted children'...which is of a piece with where he sees himself in relation to pretty much everybody else.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[krink]

is there a way to block out the posts that are replies to dwyer? no point blocking him if the threads are still difficult to follow/ruined. i can't follow what's being said to who. can people just stop engaging with him

 

[8ball]

I suspect that the truth (unpalatable as it may be) is that there is something about Islam, or perhaps about the convert's experience of Islam, that makes it work.

It hasn't worked anywhere else has it? I suppose one could make a glib comparison with the English public school system, but it's not really the same at all.

We seem to have examples popping up on this thread easily enough.

When you, (as a child especially, but not necessarily always) are being unjustly punished by a moralistic person or persons who have total power over you, your choices pretty much boil down to "they are bad, and are punishing me unfairly" and "I am bad and am being justly punished by these good people and their reasons are good".

Since they have such massive power over your fate, the second choice is often less painful to live with over a sustained period.

 

[bluescreen]

Younger recruits, far smaller scale, no real way of telling how well it's working.

No wish to derail. Maybe not on the scale of IS but nevertheless terrorising and a huge challenge for government forces.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...commander-surrenders-central-african-republic

 

[DotCommunist]

is there a way to block out the posts that are replies to dwyer? no point blocking him if the threads are still difficult to follow/ruined. i can't follow what's being said to who. can people just stop engaging with him

the ignore function will also obscure any posts that quote him, new xenforo feature

 

[butchersapron]

We seem to have examples popping up on this thread easily enough.

When you, (as a child especially, but not necessarily always) are being unjustly punished by a moralistic person or persons who have total power over you, your choices pretty much boil down to "they are bad, and are punishing me unfairly" and "I am bad and am being justly punished by these good people and their reasons are good".

Since they have such massive power over your fate, the second choice is often less painful to live with over a sustained period.

Question begging.

 

[krink]

the ignore function will also obscure any posts that quote him, new xenforo feature

yeah that's a great feature but not everyone quotes him

If you're going to 'debate' with dwyer PLEASE use quotes so the rest of us can just see the worthwhile stuff. thanks.

 

[phildwyer]

We seem to have examples popping up on this thread easily enough.

When you, (as a child especially, but not necessarily always) are being unjustly punished by a moralistic person or persons who have total power over you, your choices pretty much boil down to "they are bad, and are punishing me unfairly" and "I am bad and am being justly punished by these good people and their reasons are good".

Since they have such massive power over your fate, the second choice is often less painful to live with over a sustained period.

You do have a point 8ball.

But you'd think that you'd see things differently once you'd grown up. You'd think that a pressed corps like the Janissaries would have been plagued by desertion, discipline problems, would have required constant supervision etc.

But no. Quite the reverse. They were Islam's best warriors for centuries, quite possibly the most accomplished soldiers the world has ever known. That's strange whatever way you look at it. Has it ever happened anywhere else? Could it happen again? Is it happening now?

 

[bluescreen]

Never thought I'd be standing up for Dwyer, ever. But guys, just try and listen a moment, OK?

 

[8ball]

Yes, but you'd think that you'd see things differently once you'd grown up. You'd think that a pressed corps like the Janissaries would have been plagued by desertion, discipline problems, would have required constant supervision etc.

But no. Quite the reverse. They were Islam's best warriors for centuries, quite possibly the most accomplished soldiers the world has ever known. That's strange whatever way you look at it. Has it ever happened anywhere else? Could it happen again? Is it happening now?

It's not strange at all - it would be strange if someone was pretending to go along with things until they could make their escape, but that is not what is happening here.

 

[phildwyer]

It's not strange at all - it would be strange if someone was pretending to go along with things until they could make their escape, but that is not what is happening here.

So what is happening here iyo?

 

[frogwoman]

Dunno tbh, i think in some ways they're similar to the ustase tbh, ie a huge religious involvement, bestial, overtly and proudly sadistic slaughter of traditional 'enemies', Seizing land/territory in the context of a violent war, then again the ustase were being bankrolled by nazi germany and were their allies, and contained few foreign fighters, i think in many ways ISIS is a product of postmodernity tho and cant really be compared exactly to anything before.