The Islamic state

[Mr Moose]

I'm not sure I follow.

Surely the only way the orange jumpsuits could win more recruits is by reminding them of Guantanamo? So if it is a recruiting tool, it is one that uses the prospect of revenge as its main facet. It's undeniable that they are a reference to Guantanamo, and therefore it seems clear that ISIS view their actions as some kind of response to what they consider Western aggression.

Again, you say that the jumpsuits are designed to appeal to those "who aren't just upset about the suffering of muslims throughout the world but are drawn to and attracted to violence," but I don't see how you can separate the two motives. Surely those Muslims who are attracted to this kind of violence will be so attracted because they see it as a means to revenge.

And finally, there is no other plausible motive. These executions don't bring any tactical or propaganda benefit. The only benefit they can bring is the gratification that springs from vengeance.

Leaving aside the question of whether this lust for revenge is justified for now, can we at least agree that this is what motivates these atrocities?

The message is 'you will burn in hell' for opposing us, simple as that. Promised before in words and now made visual.

 

[phildwyer]

SOME of the people who join isis do so because they are attracted to violence

Yes, because it provides a means to revenge.

 

[Mr Moose]

I listened to an interesting LSE lecture recently, available here, in which an academic mentions that he had to sort of prompt and remind foreign jihadist fighters that they hated the West - the real target of their ire was Alawites, Shia, Yezidi etc

They quite like the West in a way with its tech. They seek domination over all other Muslims, to annihilate 'apostates'. The West they simply wish to leave them to it. Plenty of time to destroy it in the name of Allah in years to come.

 

[Pickman's model]

Can't all of the above be summed up by the word "revenge?"

Certainly whenever such terrorists attempt to justify what they have done, they claim that they are motivated by revenge. That's what the London tube bombers said. That's what the killers of Lee Rigby said. I see no reason to doubt them, do you?

with your choice of people - the 7/7 bombers, lee rigby's killers - you leave little doubt that no matter what you say, you mean revenge on 'the west'.

 

[phildwyer]

They quite like the West in a way with its tech.

No they don't. It's a matter of tactics, they attack the "near enemy" before they attack the "far enemy."

 

[phildwyer]

with your choice of people - the 7/7 bombers, lee rigby's killers - you leave little doubt that no matter what you say, you mean revenge on 'the west'.

That is both what I mean and what I say. Fool.

 

[Sasaferrato]

That is the one thing guaranteed to make the situation a thousand times worse. It was putting "boots on the ground" that got us into this mess in the first place.

Fair enough. Your answer is?

 

[phildwyer]

Fair enough. Your answer is?

GTFO of the middle east. Nothing there is our problem, unless we choose to make it so.

 

[Corax]

I am saying that some - SOME of the people who join isis do so because they are attracted to violence and it turns them on in the same way that people join neo nazi groups or go to fight for the idf for that matter.

Or football club 'firms', or etc etc etc.

People who get a kick out of violence will find a cause to justify it to themselves, no matter what their cultural surroundings.

 

[Dan U]

How far back does revenge go to excuse this shit?

Where does the chicken end and the egg begin?

 

[Pickman's model]

That is both what I mean and what I say. Fool.

so perhaps now you'll say when you think the jordanian army intervened in syria

 

[Mr Moose]

No they don't. It's a matter of tactics, they attack the "near enemy" before they attack the "far enemy."

Really? Many of them kids of the west. On a bender loving the guns and gadgets, the video, the social media.

 

[Corax]

with your choice of people - the 7/7 bombers, lee rigby's killers - you leave little doubt that no matter what you say, you mean revenge on 'the west'.

Not that this negates your point, but I learned yesterday that one of those murdered in the Charlie Hebdo attack was in fact a muslim. Still a 'western' muslim sure, but I found that an interesting bit of context.

 

[phildwyer]

Or football club 'firms', or etc etc etc.

People who get a kick out of violence will find a cause to justify it to themselves, no matter what their cultural surroundings.

So the fact that the US/uk has bombed and/or invaded 8 Muslim countries (by my count, I suppose yours might vary slightly but not much) in the last decade has nothing whatsoever to do with this?

If you believe that, you'll believe anything.

 

[frogwoman]

Can't all of the above be summed up by the word "revenge?"

Certainly whenever such terrorists attempt to justify what they have done, they claim that they are motivated by revenge. That's what the London tube bombers said. That's what the killers of Lee Rigby said. I see no reason to doubt them, do you?

No it can't.

There are loads of reasons why:

• Pornographic images of death, rape, violence etc and the chance to take part in the same with no consequences and a pseudo religious veneer. Some people join isis,for this, some people join nazi groups, some join the israeli army as a 'lone soldier' or even the us army
• Excitement and an escape from boredom
• Apocalypticism and the possibility of martyrdom, having god on your side, having an enemy to hate, a sense of brotherhood etc
• Righteous indignation

I think given the fact that the overwhelming amount of people killed by jihadis are muslim civilians and that many isis fighters connection to the victims of western fp is tenuous to say the least, many being converts etc, a different explanation should be sought than crude anti imperialism imo

 

[phildwyer]

Really? Many of them kids of the west. On a bender loving the guns and gadgets, the video, the social media.

They'll happily use Western tools against us, yes.

But don't imagine for a second that they like us or our civilization. They hate us. The ones raised among us most of all. They consider themselves Muslims first and Westerners second, and they hate the West for what it has done to the Muslim world.

 

[Dan U]

They'll happily use Western tools against us, yes.

But don't imagine for a second that they like us or our civilization. They hate us. The ones raised among us most of all. They consider themselves Muslims first and Westerners second, and they hate the West for what it has done to the Muslim world.

Does that not undermine your point that if we leave the middle east this will all disappear?

Will they suddenly accept the western way of life?

 

[Pickman's model]

Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying what I'm saying, nothing else.

but you said a minute ago all this could be pinned on western states. why so coy then?

 

[Corax]

So the fact that the US/uk has bombed and/or invaded 8 Muslim countries (by my count, I suppose yours might vary slightly but not much) in the last decade has nothing whatsoever to do with this?

If you believe that, you'll believe anything.

Not at all. I agree with you entirely on a macro level. But there are also individuals that will just use it as an excuse for their predilections. Both can exist concurrently.

 

[phildwyer]

Does that not undermine your point that if we leave the middle east this will all disappear?

It won't disappear, but it won't be directed against us.

Look at Spain. After the Madrid train bombing, they pulled their troops out of the middle east. They've had no problems since.

 

[frogwoman]

Not that this negates your point, but I learned yesterday that one of those murdered in the Charlie Hebdo attack was in fact a muslim. Still a 'western' muslim sure, but I found that an interesting bit of context.

Most victims of jihadi terrorism are muslims.

See here:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...8QFjAH&usg=AFQjCNGa3shqJRA5UwiVOu8e941c1cFSFA

Jihadis killed over 5000 people in Nov 2014.

 

[phildwyer]

How far back does revenge go to excuse this shit?

2001. When the US/uk responded to 9/11 with a disasterouly misconceived escalation.

Nothing "excuses" it of course. But that explains it.

 

[Dan U]

2001. When the US/uk responded to 9/11 with a disasterouly misconceived escalation.

Nothing "excuses" it of course. But that explains it.

What about attacks on the west and it's institutions before then?

 

[frogwoman]

2001. When the US/uk responded to 9/11 with a disasterouly misconceived escalation.

Nothing "excuses" it of course. But that explains it.

It doesn't explain their overwhelming targeting of muslim civilians.

 

[Corax]

Most victims of jihadi terrorism are muslims.

See here:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&q=november 2014 jihad bbc&ei=EkjRVLOPOozyUOu4g7gN&url=http://icsr.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/ICSR-REPORT-The-New-Jihadism-A-Global-Snapshot.pdf&ved=0CC8QFjAH&usg=AFQjCNGa3shqJRA5UwiVOu8e941c1cFSFA

Jihadis killed over 5000 people in Nov 2014.

Ah, but what type of muslim? It's hardly one big happy family of a faith.

Ps - Not that other faiths are any better in that respect. I go to church most Sundays, but I find the Westboro lot (to use an extreme example, but not just them) utterly abhorrent.

 

[Corax]

2001.

Or even 1948 perhaps...

 

[phildwyer]

What about attacks on the west and it's institutions before then?

Western support for puppet tyrannical regimes in Muslim countries and Israel. As I say, nothing justifies terrorism, but this isn't senseless, motiveless, psychotic malignity. It has clearly identifiable causes and explanations.

 

[frogwoman]

Western support for puppet tyrannical regimes in Muslim countries and Israel. As I say, nothing justifies terrorism, but this isn't senseless, motiveless, psychotic malignity. It has clearly identifiable causes and explanations.

Doesn't explain why an English bloke is travelling thousands of miles across the world to behead people and set them on fire. Or why people are converting directly to ISIS's version of Islam without a period of normal belief in between.

 

[frogwoman]

Western support for puppet tyrannical regimes in Muslim countries and Israel. As I say, nothing justifies terrorism, but this isn't senseless, motiveless, psychotic malignity. It has clearly identifiable causes and explanations.

And pampered westerners to join the IDF as lone soldiers because the whole world hates Jews right?

 

[phildwyer]

Doesn't explain why an English bloke is travelling thousands of miles across the world to behead people and set them on fire.

He sees himself as a Muslim first. He sees himself as avenging his fellow Muslims. I'll happily admit that he must be a bit of a nutter if you like, but his actions can be explained by his ideology.