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The Islamic state

I think you have a point Phil, but the huge majority of victims are other Muslims. Not to be too graphic but a lot of the behaviour and torture at other Muslims surpasses that of captured westerners and has occurred on a much greater scale. So I think Frogwoman is right to pull you up there and makes an important point
 
isis-propaganda-photo.jpg
 
Yeah well, both of you do make some fair points. I suppose I see the psychological perversions to which you refer as the result of war, rather than the cause, and so I believe that the blame for them should be laid at the door of those who started the wars.
 
phildwyer said:
Yeah well, both of you do make some fair points. I suppose I see the psychological perversions to which you refer as the result of war, rather than the cause, and so I believe that the blame for them should be laid at the door of those who started the wars.
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I don't think that it's purely psychological. I do however think that reducing everything down to it being the West's responsibility is unbelievably crude, not much better than Pamela Geller or someone pointing to verses in the Koran (which ISIS also cite as justification for their actions - 'strike off their heads' etc.) and claiming that it is because of something uniquely wrong with it.
 
Those propaganda pieces are fascinating frogwoman but mainly because they are deeply rooted in Western culture/language and this chimes with the wider way in which IS is reported in the West which is largely as a direct threat within the context of (i) recruitment of Westerners, particularly young women, (ii) blowback and (iii) morbid fascination with and, more bizarrely, deep respect in the media for the production values of their propaganda.

It's a weird way of reporting on a pseudo-state where, as far as I understand, the majority of non-native fighters are Sunni Arab, even then being in a minority.

Not that I necessarily agree with phildwyer either. I suspect the brutalisation of conflict plays a large part in persuading someone that similar acts are, first, possible and, second, explainable.

However, when you burn a man alive in a cage and video it for wide public dissemination, even if they are your enemy, or more importantly when a sufficiently wide audience views the explicit advertisement of the graphic and prolonged nature of his suffering as a genuinely good thing, then I think you have hit an ignition point of self-sustaining brutality.

How can anyone in IS come forward after that and suggest that the lads might tone things down a little...?
 
Patteran said:
The Battle for Kobani, the last four months in stark numbers - sourced from a press conference, translated here.

Number of major clashes: 220
Suicide attacks by ISIS: 19
Number of attacks with explosive loaded vehicles: 37
Number of killed IS-terrorists: 3710
Vehicles destroyed by YPG: 87
Destroyed tanks: 16
Destroyed Dushkas: 8
Destroyed Humvees: 5

Martyrs of YPG/YPJ: 408
Martyrs of Peshmerga: 1
Martyrs of Siwar El-Raqqa: 13
Martyrs of the Turkish left: 2
Martyrs of Shams Al- Shamal: 2
Click to expand...
I wonder how long ISIS could sustain losses of almost 9:1.... Short-term maybe but long term....?
 
Mr Moose said:
They quite like the West in a way with its tech. They seek domination over all other Muslims, to annihilate 'apostates'. The West they simply wish to leave them to it. Plenty of time to destroy it in the name of Allah in years to come.
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Yes, they like the tech. Unlike Boko Haram. These are spoilt boys rather than deprived boys.
phildwyer said:
If we're still talking about Jihadi John (and we might as well, since he's presumably typical), we know why he adopted his current views. He was radicalized by the Western invasion of Muslim countries. Before that he was just a street thug and aspiring rapper, and he would have stayed like that if we hadn't jolted him out of his torpor.
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Speak for yourself, honeybun. One of the things that is most objectionable about all this is the casual assumption that the individual can be identified with his government, his religious sect, or his place of birth.
 
Taking Yazidi slaves was a powerful attraction. A chance to put all your self loathing and outward loathing into violent reality: powerful attraction. Driving people from their towns, a righteous Muslim would be doing the opposite and they could still maintain legitimate grievances against the west.

What is Obama doing for the displaced in Iraq and Syria? Genuine question but I suspect it is fuck all of substance.

Its tragic that these arseholes hold so much influence when they comprise such a minority of Muslims. On a speculative point, living all those years under the rulership of Saddam, which America not so secretly supported left behind a warped 'leadership'.

I thought these medieval barbarians favored stoning? I wonder when that will be televised. Empires have been forged and forgotten in the region before. Could be the unthinkable and the cunts will spread. Death and slavery by a bunch of wankers.
 
bluescreen said:
Not snarking here, Humberto, because I'm genuinely at a loss. What would you have Obama do? I can't think of anything that wouldn't make matters worse.
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Get the international community to make a point of looking after them. If the leadership was there it could be done?
 
phil you are a fucking ISIS apologist and you ruin these threads because even when I have you on ignore everything stops making sense: 'cos you are barging in everywhere making inane and simplistic generalizations than offer absolutely nothing new, and people actually take the time to respond to you seriously.
 
Flavour said:
phil you are a fucking ISIS apologist and you ruin these threads because even when I have you on ignore everything stops making sense: 'cos you are barging in everywhere making inane and simplistic generalizations than offer absolutely nothing new, and people actually take the time to respond to you seriously.
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Give him a break. This is the one thing Dwyer knows something about. That something may be deeply hidden under layers of pass-agg mischief but it is there: a shining jewel of enlightenment. Let us attend.
 
Humberto said:
Get the international community to make a point of looking after them. If the leadership was there it could be done?
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It's not clear if you're advocating a military solution. But there isn't one. ISIS is not a normal enemy, it is a HYDRA.
 
bluescreen said:
"The international community" suddenly becomes an abstract concept. Jordan and Lebanon are carrying a massive load. How much help are they getting?
http://syrianrefugees.eu/
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Turkey's taken more refugees than anywhere else--well over a million at the last count. It's causing massive problems throughout the nation, not just in the border areas but in Istanbul too. No Western country has offered to take any.
 
phildwyer said:
ISIS is not a normal enemy, it is a HYDRA.
Click to expand...

I am not sure that it is, tbh. The more it becomes a state, the more it becomes subject to the same pressures that all states are under and the less likely it is that the influx of "external" money and recruits that have headed in its direction will continue at the same rate. Basically they are morphing from something that the Yanks have difficulty with, into something the Yanks have less difficulty with.
 
agricola said:
I am not sure that it is, tbh. The more it becomes a state, the more it becomes subject to the same pressures that all states are under and the less likely it is that the influx of "external" money and recruits that have headed in its direction will continue at the same rate. Basically they are morphing from something that the Yanks have difficulty with, into something the Yanks have less difficulty with.
Click to expand...

I see no evidence for that at all. I see plenty of evidence for them behaving like a Hydra. When you cut one head off a Hydra, ten will grow in its place.

I'd have thought that both money and recruits would increase as ISIS grow more successful, which is one way of describing them "becoming a state." Why do you thing they would start to dry up under such circumstances?

Even leaving that aside, troops who don't mind dying are unbeatable in urban warfare by troops who do mind dying. That's why ISIS were able to take Mosul from an army of 20,000 with 400 men.
 
Bullshit the iraqi army is shit thanks to iraqi goverment meddaling its been gutted of leadership
Troops who dont mind mind die die against troops who can stand.
If they were facing an army rather than a corrupt ghost force thats a way of getting cash out of the iraqi army. When they face resistance worth a shit they just die.
 
phildwyer said:
He sees himself as a Muslim first. He sees himself as avenging his fellow Muslims. I'll happily admit that he must be a bit of a nutter if you like, but his actions can be explained by his ideology.
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i don't know why you bother. you say this ^ in one post and "nothing justifies terrorism" in another. both can't be true.
 
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