I think it's tipped over in to the latter
The Islamic state
- Thread starter brogdale
- Start date
Good example. Western-born Jews join the IDF because they feel an obligation to defend (and also to avenge) their fellow Jews. I'll agree that they must also be nutters if you like, but their actions are also explicable (though not excusable) by their ideology.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
They can partially be explained by the ideology although it doesn't explain why such views were adopted in the first place, and why these actions were taken after the adoption of such beliefs, any more than IDF soldiers murdering kids can be explained because everyone hates Jews and they want revenge
It's shock and awe.
I remember when I first heard Bush use that disgraceful, marketing man's phrase in his braggart's drawl. I thought to myself: "you've just landed us all in a load of shit George, thanks a bunch." I tried to imagine how it would sound in the ears of its victims and their sympathizers, and I knew for sure it would come back to haunt us.
If we're still talking about Jihadi John (and we might as well, since he's presumably typical), we know why he adopted his current views. He was radicalized by the Western invasion of Muslim countries. Before that he was just a street thug and aspiring rapper, and he would have stayed like that if we hadn't jolted him out of his torpor.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
There are lots of people who hold a variation of such beliefs but don't act upon them. I think it sometimes takes something extra to make someone not only kill but resort to utter sadism in the name of an ideology.
I don't think IDF murderers who join up from a foreign country so they can shoot kids in the heads are doing it for revenge. I think a lot of them - not all - do it because they enjoy it and I think a lot of ISIS do so for the same reason.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
A lot of people hold such views or a variation of them but don't and will never act on them or even have sympathy for the methods of ISIS.
Maybe so. It's certainly true that the experience of war hardens people and inures them to violence. Another good reason never to wage war except in self-defense.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Some members of ISIS have been fighting in Iraq for the last twelve years. The things they have seen and done don't really bear thinking about. And the fighters from Syria, too. It's not really surprising they have come to view human life with such disdain.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
What experience of war did jihadi john and the other British Isis jihadis have before they went to Syria do you think?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
'We?'
past caring
The Cathars were right
You're a fucking clown.
If it 'explains' it, then there's no more to be said.
And if the injustice done to muslims by the west in the Middle East is the explanation, why is it that the likes of Hezbollah have yet to reach such levels of barbarism? After all, the Palestinians have been subject to far greater provocation and for much longer...
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Do you really think this is the only reason?
I don't much feel like making this a personal matter. I think that would be in very poor taste.
Many of them will have had relatives in Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, Somalia, Mali, Pakistan or one of the other Muslim nations that the West has attacked over the last decade.
Imagine how that would feel. Say a friend or a relative had been injured or worse. Then you have to see completely evil bastards like Bush and Blair boasting about it on TV with their disgusting, smug, glib PR-speak. You'd be mad as fucking hell would you not?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Enough to travel thousands of miles across the world and cut off the heads of random Kurds and Shias who had nothing to do with it, selling and buying yezidi slaves in some rape market ffs and then boasting about it in a magazine? Enough to stone to death, kill and rape people that you have never met, drive them up mountains, or force them to convert to 'Islam' (their version which includes things that prophet Muhammad specifically banned) under threat of death?
How many of these cunts do you reckon met a yezidi before they left the UK? How is any of this revenge?
'I felt a bit sad' lol.
It would depend. If a child of mine had become "collateral damage" in a US/uk drone attack, I doubt there would be any limit to what I'd do for revenge.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Killing randoms you have never met and have nothing to do with anything is not revenge
Also, 'revenge' doesn't explain their imposition of their brand of shariah law on occupied populations
Doesn't explain throwing gay Muslim men off buildings or checking peoples phones in the street and beheading them if there's something wrong on it
In that situation I wouldn't be thinking too clearly. I'd need immediate revenge, and I'd take it where I could. I think most people would do the same.
Do you know how many Muslim children have been killed in drone attacks over the last 10 years?
Nor does anybody else. We don't even bother counting them.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
My brothers and sisters around the world are killed so I'm going to rape someone of my slaves and then I'm going to wander around an occupied town with the 'hisba' and look for cigarettes in peoples shops and if anyone is caught selling them I'm going to behead them and put their head on a spike in the town square
Then I'm going to take part in burning a Muslim man to death
Fucking west, that'll show em
Then I'm going to take part in burning a Muslim man to death
Fucking west, that'll show em
Look, this is really simple.
You cannot attack 8 or 9 Muslim countries, boast that you don't give a shit about civilian casualties, and torture your prisoners without suffering some heavy consequences.
Common sense innit.
Of course there's "something else going on." All sorts of things go on once you start fighting wars. That's why sensible governments will only consider starting them in the very ultimate of extremities.
My brothers and sisters around the world are killed so I'm going to rape someone of my slaves and then I'm going to wander around an occupied town with the 'hisba' and look for cigarettes in peoples shops and if anyone is caught selling them I'm going to behead them and put their head on a spike in the town square
Then I'm going to take part in burning a Muslim man to death
Fucking west, that'll show em
Whenever they are asked what motivates them, the Jihadis point to the death of Muslim civilians in the many invasions the West has mounted over the last decade, and to the torture of prisoners. That's what the tube bombers said, that's what Lee Rigby's killers said, that's what Jihadi John says.
Why don't you believe them?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
After that I'm going to drag someone's headless body through the street and have my son hold up a severed head to post on Facebook, then I'm going to go to Baghdad and set off a car bomb killing ab load of Shiite civilians, fucking west, really getting revenge on em now innit.
People tend to go crazy when their loved ones are murdered.
Patteran
A nowadays excuse
Saddam & Assad's torturers will also have their children, real & figurative.
Is part of the answer a bleak 'because they can'. Every horrific story of cruelty in war zones has a common denominator - cruel fuckers. Whenever the world gets turned upside down, there seems to be no shortage of volunteer torturers. This happens all over, through-out history. It can't be colonial foreign policy - it has to be more profound. Some humans are fragile & vulnerably receptive to very bad ideas? Fuck knows.
Is part of the answer a bleak 'because they can'. Every horrific story of cruelty in war zones has a common denominator - cruel fuckers. Whenever the world gets turned upside down, there seems to be no shortage of volunteer torturers. This happens all over, through-out history. It can't be colonial foreign policy - it has to be more profound. Some humans are fragile & vulnerably receptive to very bad ideas? Fuck knows.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
What
1. Because they are imposing shariah law on occupied populations, Daesh's stated goal is to start a caliphate and have all Muslims assist in building it, they are attempting to rule as a state, their imposition of shariah law in this case has nothing to do with revenge
2. Because they have killed members of al-qaeda and the Taliban etc who don't agree with them
3. Because they are attacking Muslim civilians rather than military targets or western governments
4. Because of the content of their propaganda showing war and Isis as like call of duty or a video game, because of the way they are boasting about, for example, yezidi slaves
5. Because of their religious apocalypticism and the appeal to things like brotherhood and martyrdom
6. Because the content of some of the videos makes it clear that they are designed to appeal to people who are turned on by and attracted to violence, who may otherwise have joined Nazi or Zionist groups in different social settings
1. Because they are imposing shariah law on occupied populations, Daesh's stated goal is to start a caliphate and have all Muslims assist in building it, they are attempting to rule as a state, their imposition of shariah law in this case has nothing to do with revenge
2. Because they have killed members of al-qaeda and the Taliban etc who don't agree with them
3. Because they are attacking Muslim civilians rather than military targets or western governments
4. Because of the content of their propaganda showing war and Isis as like call of duty or a video game, because of the way they are boasting about, for example, yezidi slaves
5. Because of their religious apocalypticism and the appeal to things like brotherhood and martyrdom
6. Because the content of some of the videos makes it clear that they are designed to appeal to people who are turned on by and attracted to violence, who may otherwise have joined Nazi or Zionist groups in different social settings
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