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The Islamic state

DotCommunist said:
but its a strategic failure. Banzai never worked, kamikaze never worked. It leaves the operator dead and some cold eyed observer of the horror to make plans, to counter the force presented by suicide squads. It just can't win, it never has. I'd call it a kind of nihilism but they do believe, believe in a bone deep way.
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Yea the linked article finishes with:

One thing we’ve learned from the history of such regimes is that they can be stronger and more enduring than rational analysis would predict. The other thing is that they rarely end in self-destruction. They usually have to be destroyed by others.
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phildwyer said:
If we're constructing a league table of cruelty, I'd rather be burned to death than spend ten years in Gitmo.

Really got to run now...
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You are the one suggesting that the West is in the same league as I.S. when it comes to atrocities, but dismiss out of hand any argument stating that this is simply not true.
 
phildwyer said:
Froggy, I want to carry on this conversation--I think it's really important--but I have to leave the screen for a bit. I'll be back later.

Meanwhile, I'd appreciate it if you (or others) could address this question, it's a genuine one:
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I know you are trolling but I'll have a stab at answering this although I am not an Isis supporter so may be talking bollocks.

I think there is no single reason why they do it but here are some of the main ones. Bear in mind this is from stuff I gave read over the last few days and my thoughts on that so imo shouldnt be taken as gospel

I think 'revenge' is a reason but a very, very small part of it, I do think that the salafist narrative of 'good' 'muslims' (a very small part of the worldwide faith) vs 'bad' everyone else (including shias, 'apostates' etc) plays a significant part in why people join ISIS, coupled with the war/martyrdom rhetoric and apocalypticism (their magazine's title alludes to armageddon for example) I don't think that salafism can be pinned on western imperialism since the overwhelming majority of attacks by salafist groups are against muslim civilians.

I think the orange jumpsuit thing is more a message to the siddique khan type deluded sapzs who are considering joining, i think it's partially a recruitment device, and partly done for 'aesthetic' reasons, to attract those who aren't just upset about the suffering of muslims throughout the world but are drawn to and attracted to violence, the kind of people who in a different setting would have hung swastikas flags on their walls rather than ISIS ones.

I also think it's done to terrify their enemies but also to terrify people thinking of deserting into staying - I think another reason why this video has been released now in the aftermath of kobane is to say look we're still here and dont give a fuck what you think.

In other words I dont think there's one reason why they release these videos and do these things. I think there are several.

Also remember that this was one of the reasons for Zarqawi's original quarrel with OBL and the al-qaeda leadership who were unhappy with the beheading videos they were putting out because they thought it would alienate mainstream public opinion in the middle east, these guys are trying to say they literally do not give a shit about public opinion.

This is probably all bollocks but these are just some of what i think the main reasons could be.
 
Well twitter is saying stuff along the lines that there are a great deal of angry/unhappy ordinary people in Jordan today - and this is qualified by pointing out that ordinary people in Jordan have little or no say over the actions of the state. In reality I would think that their demise would be bought about by a number of actors rather than a single state or group of people. Pure speculation on my part of course.
 
Jesus Christ. Or Allah u akhbar. Whatever. Just watched that vid, or part of it. Couldn't get through it all... That poor motherfucker, I hope they're arming pilots with cyanide capsules now.
 
gabi said:
Jesus Christ. Or Allah u akhbar. Whatever. Just watched that vid, or part of it. Couldn't get through it all... That poor motherfucker, I hope they're arming pilots with cyanide capsules now.
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I did think at first, don't bomb ISIS, use napalm. On reflection though, descending into barbarity is not the answer.
 
frogwoman said:
I know you are trolling but I'll have a stab at answering this although I am not an Isis supporter so may be talking bollocks.

I think there is no single reason why they do it but here are some of the main ones. Bear in mind this is from stuff I gave read over the last few days and my thoughts on that so imo shouldnt be taken as gospel

I think 'revenge' is a reason but a very, very small part of it, I do think that the salafist narrative of 'good' 'muslims' (a very small part of the worldwide faith) vs 'bad' everyone else (including shias, 'apostates' etc) plays a significant part in why people join ISIS, coupled with the war/martyrdom rhetoric and apocalypticism (their magazine's title alludes to armageddon for example) I don't think that salafism can be pinned on western imperialism since the overwhelming majority of attacks by salafist groups are against muslim civilians.

I think the orange jumpsuit thing is more a message to the siddique khan type deluded sapzs who are considering joining, i think it's partially a recruitment device, and partly done for 'aesthetic' reasons, to attract those who aren't just upset about the suffering of muslims throughout the world but are drawn to and attracted to violence, the kind of people who in a different setting would have hung swastikas flags on their walls rather than ISIS ones.

I also think it's done to terrify their enemies but also to terrify people thinking of deserting into staying - I think another reason why this video has been released now in the aftermath of kobane is to say look we're still here and dont give a fuck what you think.

In other words I dont think there's one reason why they release these videos and do these things. I think there are several.

Also remember that this was one of the reasons for Zarqawi's original quarrel with OBL and the al-qaeda leadership who were unhappy with the beheading videos they were putting out because they thought it would alienate mainstream public opinion in the middle east, these guys are trying to say they literally do not give a shit about public opinion.

This is probably all bollocks but these are just some of what i think the main reasons could be.
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How is this going to pan out? The status quo isn't really an option, capitulation is unthinkable, so, boots on the ground?

If it does come to that, perhaps France and Belgium will make a significant combination.

What a fucking mess.
 
Its safe for work but some of the quotes are shocking for example:
Pickman's model said:
nsfw?
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b2ap3_thumbnail_I-felt-a-bit-sad.jpg


Wtf. Felt a bit sad.
 
TheHoodedClaw said:
Interesting article, and the closing paragraph seems scarily right to me. So, who is to be the Vietnam to the Islamic State's Khmer Rouge?
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Shallow and lazy (not you, the article writer). It was an authoritarian state, and one that acted in particular ways in an unfinished process of forming into something more secure due to the specific dynamics between two countries and wider, historically linked regional national liberation movement/s later affected by three larger powers (two of them superpowers, the other with regional concerns to its south) that aren't seen in the case of IS. And one that emerged out of an original insurgency.

You may as well just say they weren't very nice and killed lots of people.
 
frogwoman said:
I think the orange jumpsuit thing is more a message to the siddique khan type deluded sapzs who are considering joining, i think it's partially a recruitment device, and partly done for 'aesthetic' reasons, to attract those who aren't just upset about the suffering of muslims throughout the world but are drawn to and attracted to violence, the kind of people who in a different setting would have hung swastikas flags on their walls rather than ISIS ones.
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I'm not sure I follow.

Surely the only way the orange jumpsuits could win more recruits is by reminding them of Guantanamo? So if it is a recruiting tool, it is one that uses the prospect of revenge as its main facet. It's undeniable that they are a reference to Guantanamo, and therefore it seems clear that ISIS view their actions as some kind of response to what they consider Western aggression.

Again, you say that the jumpsuits are designed to appeal to those "who aren't just upset about the suffering of muslims throughout the world but are drawn to and attracted to violence," but I don't see how you can separate the two motives. Surely those Muslims who are attracted to this kind of violence will be so attracted because they see it as a means to revenge.

And finally, there is no other plausible motive. These executions don't bring any tactical or propaganda benefit. The only benefit they can bring is the gratification that springs from vengeance.

Leaving aside the question of whether this lust for revenge is justified for now, can we at least agree that this is what motivates these atrocities?
 
Sasaferrato said:
How is this going to pan out? The status quo isn't really an option, capitulation is unthinkable, so, boots on the ground?
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That is the one thing guaranteed to make the situation a thousand times worse. It was putting "boots on the ground" that got us into this mess in the first place.
 
phildwyer said:
I'm not sure I follow.

Surely the only way the orange jumpsuits could win more recruits is by reminding them of Guantanamo? So if it is a recruiting tool, it is one that uses the prospect of revenge as its main facet. It's undeniable that they are a reference to Guantanamo, and therefore it seems clear that ISIS view their actions as some kind of response to what they consider Western aggression.

Again, you say that the jumpsuits are designed to appeal to those "who aren't just upset about the suffering of muslims throughout the world but are drawn to and attracted to violence," but I don't see how you can separate the two motives. Surely those Muslims who are attracted to this kind of violence will be so attracted because they see it as a means to revenge.

And finally, there is no other plausible motive. These executions don't bring any tactical or propaganda benefit. The only benefit they can bring is the gratification that springs from vengeance.

Leaving aside the question of whether this lust for revenge is justified for now, can we at least agree that this is what motivates these atrocities?
Click to expand...

I think the recruitment works on two/threr levels at least

The Mohammed Siddique Khan types who sit around watching videos of brave mujihadeen and the suffering experienced by muslims round the world

The 'war is like call of duty' stuff as seen on isis recruitment vids, explicitly stated by the mujihadeen themselves

Pornographic sadism and snuff movies as in this video
 
phildwyer said:
I'm not sure I follow.

Surely the only way the orange jumpsuits could win more recruits is by reminding them of Guantanamo? So if it is a recruiting tool, it is one that uses the prospect of revenge as its main facet. It's undeniable that they are a reference to Guantanamo, and therefore it seems clear that ISIS view their actions as some kind of response to what they consider Western aggression.

Again, you say that the jumpsuits are designed to appeal to those "who aren't just upset about the suffering of muslims throughout the world but are drawn to and attracted to violence," but I don't see how you can separate the two motives. Surely those Muslims who are attracted to this kind of violence will be so attracted because they see it as a means to revenge.

And finally, there is no other plausible motive. These executions don't bring any tactical or propaganda benefit. The only benefit they can bring is the gratification that springs from vengeance.

Leaving aside the question of whether this lust for revenge is justified for now, can we at least agree that this is what motivates these atrocities?
Click to expand...

I am saying that some - SOME of the people who join isis do so because they are attracted to violence and it turns them on in the same way that people join neo nazi groups or go to fight for the idf for that matter.
 
frogwoman said:
I think the recruitment works on two/threr levels at least

The Mohammed Siddique Khan types who sit around watching videos of brave mujihadeen and the suffering experienced by muslims round the world

The 'war is like call of duty' stuff as seen on isis recruitment vids, explicitly stated by the mujihadeen themselves

Pornographic sadism and snuff movies as in this video
Click to expand...

Can't all of the above be summed up by the word "revenge?"

Certainly whenever such terrorists attempt to justify what they have done, they claim that they are motivated by revenge. That's what the London tube bombers said. That's what the killers of Lee Rigby said. I see no reason to doubt them, do you?
 
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