The Islamic state

[phildwyer]

I have difficulty believing that Ibn Khaldoun is actually a real person, seems more like a troll character to me.

You seem like a troll character to me.

J Ed yesterday, on being told that the PKK are baddies not goodies:

 

[phildwyer]

Don't you think working towards an agreed Kurdish homeland would solve at least some of the conflicts in the area?

There's already a Kurdish state in northern Iraq. That's pretty much the best they can hope for. They're not going to be able to take a piece of Turkey, because Turkey is still traumatized at having been dismembered by the West after WW1. The modern Turkish state was founded on the principle of "thus far and no further," and it will never give up another inch of its territory under any circumstances whatsoever.

The sooner people in the West understand that, the sooner a fair resolution to the conflict can be achieved.

 

[goldenecitrone]

There's already a Kurdish state in northern Iraq. That's pretty much the best they can hope for. They're not going to be able to take a piece of Turkey, because Turkey is still traumatized at having been dismembered by the West after WW1. The modern Turkish state was founded on the principle of "thus far and no further," and it will never give up another inch of its territory under any circumstances whatsoever.

The sooner people in the West understand that, the sooner a fair resolution to the conflict can be achieved.

What are the chances of the Turkish Kurds having their own devolved government? A kind of Kurdish Wales.

 

[Pickman's model]

What are the chances of the Turkish Kurds having their own devolved government? A kind of Kurdish Wales.

more likely to get kurdish wails

 

[J Ed]

You know it's funny how similar the anti-Kurdish rhetoric is to far-right anti-Palestinian rhetoric. There has never been a Kurdistan (there has never been a Palestine ruled by Palestinians), there is already a Kurdish state in Iraq (Jordan is already a Palestinian state)

 

[redsquirrel]

Don't think I agree with that, the Spanish Civil War wasn't a clear case of right and wrong at the time, as ever in war it's the usual clash of silo'd reality isn't it, people pretty much never have a moment like in that Mitchell and Webb sketch where one of them wonders "erm... are we the bad guys?", having noticed the Deaths Head on his SS hat.

And what helpful role does armed-interventional internationalism really play? If the people actually living there are unable or unwilling by and large to overthrow the regime, a bunch of armed do-gooders aren't going to be able to turn the tide are they, at most they'll prolong the war a bit. In fact I could go so far as to say it's just another form of foreign intervention, but happy to be persuaded otherwise.

"no place for outsiders" I think applies in most cases, and in fact it's often outsiders in some form that caused the shite in the first place.

What an absolute load of liberal hogwash

 

[phildwyer]

You know it's funny how similar the anti-Kurdish rhetoric is to far-right anti-Palestinian rhetoric. There has never been a Kurdistan (there has never been a Palestine ruled by Palestinians), there is already a Kurdish state in Iraq (Jordan is already a Palestinian state)

So you don't have me on ignore after all then?

 

[phildwyer]

What are the chances of the Turkish Kurds having their own devolved government? A kind of Kurdish Wales.

Not a government but, in the long term, I think some form of regionalization is the only solution. But there are (of course) complicating factors. The ceasefire has to hold, and probably the PKK would have to at least make a gesture towards disarmament. And the existence of Iraqi Kurdistan is also a major stumbling block.

Yet worse, the only mainstream Turkish Party that could do such a deal is the AKP. Because of their Islamic fundamentalism, the AKP enjoy considerable support among Turkey's Kurds--far more than the PKK. The problem is that the AKP are loathed by the Turkish secular Left, large sections of which would protest such a deal. Combined with the inevitably fierce nationalist opposition from the Right, that might not leave enough Turkish support for any deal to hold. And without the support of a majority of the population (of the nation not the region) it's a non-starter.

So it will take a very long time but, maybe, yes.

 

[coley]

There's already a Kurdish state in northern Iraq. That's pretty much the best they can hope for. They're not going to be able to take a piece of Turkey, because Turkey is still traumatized at having been dismembered by the West after WW1. The modern Turkish state was founded on the principle of "thus far and no further," and it will never give up another inch of its territory under any circumstances whatsoever.

The sooner people in the West understand that, the sooner a fair resolution to the conflict can be achieved.

The modern Turkish state was founded on the genocide and the expulsion of 20% of its population,unfortunately for Turkey, the Kurds don't seem to be about to let that happen to them, I'm just suggesting that a redrawing of borders and recognition of a distinct nationality could save a lot of bloodshed.
I'm a unionist, but if Scotland had voted for independence and Westminster had tried to deny them it, then the security forces in Scotland would then become legitimate targets.
But there's also the pragmatic side, take NI, despite the historical wrongs,a settlement was reached and that settlement was defended at great cost to the UK, surely Turkey and the Kurds could reach some similar
settlement?
Make no mistake, the borders of the ME are going to be redrawn, while most would like to see it done by peaceful negotiation,a lot of it is going to involve blood and suffering.
One thing is clear, ISIS isn't going to be allowed a continued existence.

 

[phildwyer]

The modern Turkish state was founded on the genocide

I stopped reading there. Goodbye.

 

[coley]

I stopped reading there. Goodbye.

I'm on ignore by Phil? Is that an urban first?

 

[phildwyer]

I'm a unionist, but if Scotland had voted for independence and Westminster had tried to deny them it, then the security forces in Scotland would then become legitimate targets.

Actually I'll ignore your disgusting and ignorant slander because you force me to refute this latest idiocy.

You seem to be under the impression that the Kurds have voted for independence. You idiot. Not only have they not so voted, they have consistently told pollsters that they do not want independence. What they want is increased autonomy, language rights etc.

These are the facts:

Over 75% of Turkish Kurds support the Turkish government's current initiative to resolve the Kurdish question.

Only 30% of Turkish Kurds said most Kurds wanted a separate state.

Only 38% of Turkish Kurds said the PKK speaks for them. 42% said the PKK did not speak for them.

http://arsiv.setav.org/ups/dosya/8504.pdf

 

[phildwyer]

Make no mistake, the borders of the ME are going to be redrawn

Turkey's won't be. You Brits did quite enough of that 100 years ago.

 

[coley]

I stopped reading there. Goodbye.

So you didn't?
Ok, explain to me why you went off it when I mentioned genocide?

 

[SpineyNorman]

The imperialist forces can never buy-out the tribes. Nor can they admit the victories of the resistence in its push to Baghdad.

In their attempted bribery, Washington supposes the sons and daughters of Iraq and Suria who were its martyrs died in vain and they believe they can create sedition within the Mujahideen!

And have they failed in their endeavour and shall continue to fail.

The Arab-Islamic ummah dares to persist against the Americans and British, Persians, and Israelies. Woe Betide them all.

this from the same weirdo who cheered on the nato bombing of libya

you massive bell end

 

[phildwyer]

So you didn't?
Ok, explain to me why you went off it when I mentioned genocide?

Because it makes rational conversation difficult when your first instinct is resort the vilest insult you can think of.

But then it occurred to me that you may actually believe that the Turkish Kurds have voted for independence.

So I had to correct you. Far from having voted for it, Turkey's Kurds have consistently told pollsters that they do not want independence from Turkey. What they want is their full rights as Turkish citizens.

Idiots like you are preventing ordinary Kurds from attaining those rights, by supporting the most militant and aggressive element among them, this ensuring that they remain in a constant sate of low-level civil war. The equivalent would be if you'd taken the Provos as representative of Ulster Catholic opinion.

Which come to think of it you probably do.

 

[yield]

http://arsiv.setav.org/ups/dosya/8504.pdf

To be fair that article is from 2009. I reckon support for Kurdish independence and the PKK has increased since the heroic defence of Kobani.

Phil what do you think of this guardian article from September last year. ‘Their fight is our fight’: Kurds rush from across Turkey to defend Kobani

 

[goldenecitrone]

Not a government but, in the long term, I think some form of regionalization is the only solution. But there are (of course) complicating factors. The ceasefire has to hold, and probably the PKK would have to at least make a gesture towards disarmament. And the existence of Iraqi Kurdistan is also a major stumbling block.

Yet worse, the only mainstream Turkish Party that could do such a deal is the AKP. Because of their Islamic fundamentalism, the AKP enjoy considerable support among Turkey's Kurds--far more than the PKK. The problem is that the AKP are loathed by the Turkish secular Left, large sections of which would protest such a deal. Combined with the inevitably fierce nationalist opposition from the Right, that might not leave enough Turkish support for any deal to hold. And without the support of a majority of the population (of the nation not the region) it's a non-starter.

So it will take a very long time but, maybe, yes.

Regionalization makes more sense to me than splitting away from Turkey to form a greater Kurdistan. Having worked with both Iraqi and Turkish Kurds in the past, they didn't seem to have that much in common, and could barely understand each other's languages. I also found the rabid nationalists in both camps pretty unpleasant, not to mention dangerous.

 

[J Ed]

this from the same weirdo who cheered on the nato bombing of libya

you massive bell end

For an ISIS supporter he also cares a lot about the People's Princess, he is very silly

 

[camouflage]

This is just bizarre.

As in the Syrian Civil War, during the Spanish Civil War there were both state and non-state actors who intervened on both sides. The material and logistical support received by the Nationalists far outweighed that of the Republic. You simply cannot delineate between outsiders and non-outsiders in a regional conflict, obviously this applies in Syria and applied in Spain.

As far as 'prolonging the conflict' goes, I am not really sure what to think of that. I don't think that the contribution of foreign fighters in Rojava is significant beyond morale, and it was probably overstated during the Spanish Civil War, but given the almost genocidal aftermath of the victories of Franco and ISIS even prolonging a defeat to allow civilians to flee seems worthy to me.

Well that last bit does make sense, but I still think that voluntarily looking to participate directly in a war is morally questionable. Not that it couldn't be justified... but the idea should be considered with a great deal of suspicion. In most cases the end result would probably be disillusion and brutalization. Isn't one of the first unspoken rules of the foot-soldier to never volunteer?

 

[phildwyer]

To be fair that article is from 2009. I reckon support for Kurdish independence and the PKK has increased since the heroic defence of Kobani.

I doubt that. Some youth will have been radicalized, but mainstream opinion will have moved sharply in the other direction. Why would a middle-class or aspirant middle-class Kurd want to leave a prosperous nation like Turkey and throw in his lot with the chaotic brawling mishmash of radicals over the border?

Phil what do you think of this guardian article from September last year. ‘Their fight is our fight’: Kurds rush from across Turkey to defend Kobani

I've never denied that the PKK has considerable support. Among the poor and disenfranchised, and in the far south-east, that support is often very passionate. But it doesn't reflect majority Kurdish opinion. Never has, never will.

 

[phildwyer]

Regionalization makes more sense to me than splitting away from Turkey to form a greater Kurdistan. Having worked with both Iraqi and Turkish Kurds in the past, they didn't seem to have that much in common, and could barely understand each other's languages.

Well quite. In sharp contrast, it is almost impossible to tell a Turkish Kurd from a Turk.

Contrary to what one might assume from the Western media (and certainly from this thread) a Turkish Kurd will have far more in common, culturally and politically, with a Turk than with an Iraqi Kurd.

 

[coley]

Actually I'll ignore your disgusting and ignorant slander because you force me to refute this latest idiocy.

You seem to be under the impression that the Kurds have voted for independence. You idiot. Not only have they not so voted, they have consistently told pollsters that they do not want independence. What they want is increased autonomy, language rights etc.

These are the facts:

Over 75% of Turkish Kurds support the Turkish government's current initiative to resolve the Kurdish question.

Only 30% of Turkish Kurds said most Kurds wanted a separate state.

Only 38% of Turkish Kurds said the PKK speaks for them. 42% said the PKK did not speak for them.

http://arsiv.setav.org/ups/dosya/8504.pdf

A heavily weighted poll, bit like the giving every one in the UK a vote in the Scottish referendum!

 

[coley]

Because it makes rational conversation difficult when your first instinct is resort the vilest insult you can think of.

But then it occurred to me that you may actually believe that the Turkish Kurds have voted for independence.

So I had to correct you. Far from having voted for it, Turkey's Kurds have consistently told pollsters that they do not want independence from Turkey. What they want is their full rights as Turkish citizens.

Idiots like you are preventing ordinary Kurds from attaining those rights, by supporting the most militant and aggressive element among them, this ensuring that they remain in a constant sate of low-level civil war. The equivalent would be if you'd taken the Provos as representative of Ulster Catholic opinion.

Which come to think of it you probably do.

How is referring to what happened in Turkey a " vile insult"
As for your crack re; the Provos, I spent 3 years in NI fighting them, what's your contribution been?

 

[phildwyer]

A heavily weighted poll, bit like the giving every one in the UK a vote in the Scottish referendum!

What are you on about Coley?

The poll was taken among Kurds only.

 

[phildwyer]

As for your crack re; the Provos, I spent 3 years in NI fighting them

That is nothing to be proud of.

 

[coley]

What are you on about Coley?

The poll was taken among Kurds only.

Check page 16 of your link, methodology, says nowt about only Kurd being involved?

 

[coley]

That is nothing to be proud of.

So Turkish security Forces fighting the PKK should be ashamed of themselves?

 

[phildwyer]

So Turkish security Forces fighting the PKK should be ashamed of themselves?

Why do you always put words in my mouth?

I didn't say you should be ashamed of yourself. I don't think you should. I said it was nothing to be proud of. See the difference?

 

[phildwyer]

Check page 16 of your link, methodology, says nowt about only Kurd being involved?

FFS Coley, you haven't even glanced at the link. That you should be ashamed of.

The respondents to each question are divided into Turks and Kurds. The figures I gave were taken from Kurds only. And so you now look silly.