Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Much anti-GM sentiment is and was based on knowledge of human behaviour with new technology and how capitalism functions.
The GM debate
- Thread starter sleaterkinney
- Start date
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
A bit like a large chunk of the resistance to the covid vaccine - hence misplaced / misdirected
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Human nature is a bad argument against anything, and the "but capitalism" argument is similarly vague. Antibiotics were developed under capitalism and have saved many millions of lives. They have also been mis-used and as a result anti-bacterial resistance is becoming a problem. Would you still argue against the notion of antibiotics in general, or the development of new antibiotics?
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
And Americans will get on the mic in Paltalk rooms and say how "High Fructose Corn Syrup" is the reason they're obese ...
Not that I'm advocating a high sugar diet, but it's metabolically identical to the sugar derived from beet or cane or palm or anything else ...
And ironically, unfermented corn syrup is almost pure glucose so slighly "safer" - but not sufficiently sweet ...
I bet millions if asked would claim the this syrup is "GM" ...
Not that I'm advocating a high sugar diet, but it's metabolically identical to the sugar derived from beet or cane or palm or anything else ...
And ironically, unfermented corn syrup is almost pure glucose so slighly "safer" - but not sufficiently sweet ...
I bet millions if asked would claim the this syrup is "GM" ...
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Not at all. Huge corporations waiting to take control of as much crop cultivation as possible, patenting seeds, reducing the biodiversity of crops - that's what they want to do. GM appeared to give them that control writ large. All the arguments for its widespread introduction quickly were put forward by, guess who, the GM lobby and no-one else.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
The over-use and misuse of antibiotics is a good example. The GM lobby initially wanted and argued for a complete free for all. "We've been modifying genes for centuries". That could have, and still could, prove to be really problematic.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
Seeds and cultivars have been patented for ages.
F1 seeds may or may not be patented, but they don't breed true anyway.
People opt for hybrid and GM seed over open-pollinated for a reason.
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Yeah, but not always a good reason.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
Have you any experience of growing plants ?
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
But there are still legitimate uses for antibiotics, as there should be for GM. Which is definitely not the impression I get from anti-GM campaigners, who seem to have a problem with the technology in of itself, rather than with predatory practices by corporations. Otherwise they would be anti-capitalist campaigners, not anti-GM campaigners. They should have no problem with projects like Golden Rice, yet they do.
The use by big corporations of patents and whatnot as weapons against the little guy is not a problem unique to GM by any means whatsoever. Attacking GM on that basis strikes me as attacking the symptoms, not the cause.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
What do Greenpeace say:
www.greenpeace.org
"Genetically modfied (GM) crops encourage corporate control of the food chain and pesticide-heavy industrial farming. GM plants can also contaminate other crops and lead to 'super weeds'. This technology must be strictly controlled to protect our environment, farmers and independent science."
Super-weeds sound nasty. What are they?
geneticliteracyproject.org
"Superweeds are super only in their ability to resist one or more specific herbicides. Aside from that, there is nothing that separates them from any other weed found in a farmer’s field, and they are not linked specifically to GMOs or to glyphosate. Most scientists see the evolution of these resistant weeds as inevitable whenever herbicides are relied upon exclusively to combat nuisance plants."
GMOs - Greenpeace European Unit
www.greenpeace.org
"Genetically modfied (GM) crops encourage corporate control of the food chain and pesticide-heavy industrial farming. GM plants can also contaminate other crops and lead to 'super weeds'. This technology must be strictly controlled to protect our environment, farmers and independent science."
Super-weeds sound nasty. What are they?
What are "Superweeds"?
Scientists generally scorn the term superweeds, arguing that it suggests a weed is exceptionally strong or even invulnerable. Rather, these weeds have developed a resistance to a particular herbicide. According to Andrew Kniss, Associate Professor of Weed Biology and Ecology at the University of...
geneticliteracyproject.org
"Superweeds are super only in their ability to resist one or more specific herbicides. Aside from that, there is nothing that separates them from any other weed found in a farmer’s field, and they are not linked specifically to GMOs or to glyphosate. Most scientists see the evolution of these resistant weeds as inevitable whenever herbicides are relied upon exclusively to combat nuisance plants."
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
Greenpeace need to get their comeuppance. soon.
Not least because of the way they provide the equivalent of chemtrails and 5G for well-intentioned but uneducated (in science) people.
They long ago lost all the justified credit they earned from anti-nuclear tests etc ...
It's such a shame that Patrick Moore the guy who resigned not only claims he knows the GM / glyphosate thing is nonsense, he's sadly also a climate change denier.
I'm happy to believe he hopes for kudos from Big GM as well as being in the thrall of Big Carbon ...
Not least because of the way they provide the equivalent of chemtrails and 5G for well-intentioned but uneducated (in science) people.
They long ago lost all the justified credit they earned from anti-nuclear tests etc ...
It's such a shame that Patrick Moore the guy who resigned not only claims he knows the GM / glyphosate thing is nonsense, he's sadly also a climate change denier.
I'm happy to believe he hopes for kudos from Big GM as well as being in the thrall of Big Carbon ...
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Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Yes, decades worth. Your point being?
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
So you know the particular qualities of F1 hybrids ?
What would be a "bad" reason for choosing to grow one ?
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Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Off the top of my head, you can no longer save seed for future sowing, not with any degree of success. This makes smallholders completely reliant on the seed merchants. I believe that the uniformity of the seed can also lead to gluts and/or crop failures, which again is not necessarily what smallholders or gardeners want.
Anyway, you're moving the goalposts. 'Hybrid and GM' has now become 'F1 hybrids'.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
You still don't get it do you ?
So why do growers CHOOSE to pay for uniformity ?
Open-pollinated varieties are always available and many DO save their own seed and no doubt do a little bit of breeding themselves.
I plan to do a bit of seed-saving and breeding myself in the future - though when I get THOUSANDS of veggie seeds for £1 ...
And what varieties are we discussing, bulk crops or tomatoes ?
As to GM vs F1, there is method to my madness ...
As an aside, how do you feel about Borlaug's Nobel prize and his methods ... and Gluten !!!!
And while we're here, please tell me the second key use for glyphosate...
I ought to put a time limit on this ... but perhaps your googling will actually end up with you learning something ...
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Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
The whole point of the GM debate, as it started out in the 1990's, was that the industry was not concerned about choice. They rarely are. They were also unconcerned about any environmental impact. If they had had their way GM would have come to dominate, if not monopolise, seed production and distribution worldwide. There would have been no choice. There still isn't now, when big companies can use their economic advantage to undercut more local producers. It's not all about the landowners or farmers anyway. If wider society can see potential environmental problems then we should all have a say.
You still don't get it, do you?
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
You have chosen to ignore the science and practice and are back to motive and conspiracy.
I doubt you actually care.
At the moment the elephant in the room for UK crop production is tied to the Ukraine and Fritz Haber ...
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
I can’t see that many actual farmers over at thefarmingforum.co.uk are especially worried about GM crops restricting their choices.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
And aubergine farmers in India are risking imprisonment to grow BT brinjal (aubergine / eggplant).
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
I agree, but it doesn't help to blur the general problem of corporate greed by piling on conspiracy theories ...
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
The science neither proves nor disproves the motive. Motives can be good or bad, and also mistaken. You're the one invoking conspiracies. I'm just talking about capitalism, corporate greed and the desire to control. And how environmental concern should take precedence over the onward march of supposed scientific truth. For a while at least.
I don't really think personal slurs help the argument going forward, so I'm not going to accuse you of anything at all, but I may take less notice of you in future.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
I wish the poll had a "No to GM humans" option, for those opposed to gene therapy to treat any diseases (presumably such therapies may be offered by corporations 
).
).
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
What is the "environmental concern" around hybrid seed - whether or not the breeding was aided by GM techniques or atomic gardening and colchicine ?
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
The most recent GM-related bullshit I encountered was some conflation of one piss-poor "paper" that claimed the one atom of phosphorous in every glyphosate molecule was causing eutrophication of waterways through runoff ... 
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NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
I wish the poll had a "No to GM humans" option, for those opposed to gene therapy to treat any diseases (presumably such therapies may be offered by corporations
And if you're someone who knows that they carry an inheritable disease and would like to avoid potentially passing it onto your children? Tough shit, some strangers' addiction to GATTACA fear porn is more important than you being able to ensure your childrens' quality of life.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
Top objectioning here from the “GM Freeze” spokesperson:
“Mistakes happen. Other changes can get made. Genetics is not like Lego. It is a new set of techniques, and it has developed very quickly which means that there is an awful lot that could go wrong. The process does involve putting genetic material in, in order to take it out, and there is a deliberate oversimplification in the description of the process in order to make people feel comfortable about it."
Disingenuous slapdash scientists haven’t spent enough time thinking about it, apparently.
“Mistakes happen. Other changes can get made. Genetics is not like Lego. It is a new set of techniques, and it has developed very quickly which means that there is an awful lot that could go wrong. The process does involve putting genetic material in, in order to take it out, and there is a deliberate oversimplification in the description of the process in order to make people feel comfortable about it."
Disingenuous slapdash scientists haven’t spent enough time thinking about it, apparently.
Gene-edited tomatoes could soon be sold in England
A bill is to be introduced in Parliament in two days' time to allow the commercial growing of gene-edited crops in England.
www.bbc.co.uk
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
You would think if they had any relevant qualifications they would broadcast it.Top objectioning here from the “GM Freeze” spokesperson:
“Mistakes happen. Other changes can get made. Genetics is not like Lego. It is a new set of techniques, and it has developed very quickly which means that there is an awful lot that could go wrong. The process does involve putting genetic material in, in order to take it out, and there is a deliberate oversimplification in the description of the process in order to make people feel comfortable about it."
Disingenuous slapdash scientists haven’t spent enough time thinking about it, apparently.
Gene-edited tomatoes could soon be sold in England
A bill is to be introduced in Parliament in two days' time to allow the commercial growing of gene-edited crops in England.www.bbc.co.uk
About GM Freeze
GM Freeze is the UK’s umbrella campaign on GM food, crops and patents. Formed in 1999 as the Five Year Freeze, we became a not-for-profit registered company in 2005. Our members include large…
www.gmfreeze.org
Luddites.
OK she actually has a BSc.
Not that it means much.
platinumsage
HaveMyPassword123
They should probably update their leaflets:
"The monarch butterfly has declined by 80%
since 1996 and studies show that GM farming is
one of the main causes."
2019: "A study just published in the peer-reviewed journal PNAS suggests that recent declines in monarch populations are part of a much longer trend....The claim that GM crops might be responsible for the decline of monarchs was one of the few plausible reasons for opposing their cultivation from an environmental perspective."
allianceforscience.cornell.edu
"The monarch butterfly has declined by 80%
since 1996 and studies show that GM farming is
one of the main causes."
2019: "A study just published in the peer-reviewed journal PNAS suggests that recent declines in monarch populations are part of a much longer trend....The claim that GM crops might be responsible for the decline of monarchs was one of the few plausible reasons for opposing their cultivation from an environmental perspective."
Study suggests GM crops not prime culprit in monarch decline - Alliance for Science
A new study apparently casts doubt on the supposed unambiguous relationship between the adoption of genetically modified (GM) crops and the decline in monarch butterflies. A study just published in the peer-reviewed journal PNAS suggests that recent declines in monarch populations are part of a...
allianceforscience.cornell.edu
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