The Anti-Imperialism of Fools - a General thread

[Idris2002]

I was thinking of posting this on the ISIS thread, but I think it would be too much of a tangent there, so it gets its own thread:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/30/half-of-humanity-now-forms-the-resistance/

Someone (who is usually reliable, so don't start on her) sent me this, and well, I found plenty to disagree with there. It appears to be the work of someone who doesn't realise that it's not 1968 anymore, and rather than being some twinkly-eyed hippy, he's a paid up fan of Bob Mugabe and Issaias Afeworki.

The latter is especially ironic, because he seems to have swallowed the PFDJ regimes stuff about national independence full blown. He doesn't seem to be aware that global mining multinationals are having a high old time in Eritrea right now, and probably using the unpaid labour of national service conscripts to do it (they claim they've checked and everything's copacetic on that front, but well, you see the problem).

Then there's his stuff about Rwanda. He's actually right that the Kagame regime is an utterly ruthless one, but less than correct about him being a western implant. Sure, K's had support from the west over the years, but he's been his own agent at the same time. The point is that these guys are rarely mere catspaws of the west etc., and that that is one thing that this paradigm can't deal with.

As for the idea that the present South African government is part of an anti-imperialst front with Zimbabwe, well that's merely silly.

 

[phildwyer]

The rhetoric's a tad overblown, but the sentiments seem fair enough to me. We are facing an enemy of unprecedented power and depravity, in the form of postmodern Capital. This isn't the time to be too picky about our allies. Anti-capitalists from every part of the political "spectrum" (as if that image still had any validity) need to bury their differences and focus on the task in hand. Time really is running out now.

 

[Idris2002]

The rhetoric's a tad overblown, but the sentiments seem fair enough to me. We are facing an enemy of unprecedented power and depravity, in the form of postmodern Capital. This isn't the time to be too picky about our allies. Anti-capitalists from every part of the political "spectrum" (as if that image still had any validity) need to bury their differences and focus on the task in hand. Time really is running out now.

With friends like this, who needs enemies?

 

[phildwyer]

With friends like this, who needs enemies?

The traditional "Left" (whatever that means these days) isn't in a position to challenge Capital on its own.

So it's either forge non-traditional alliances, without being too fussy about them, or leave Capital to go unchallenged. And the latter isn't an option as far as I'm concerned.

 

[chilango]

A prescient title Idris2002 Well played.

 

[NoXion]

The traditional "Left" (whatever that means these days) isn't in a position to challenge Capital on its own.

So it's either forge non-traditional alliances, without being too fussy about them, or leave Capital to go unchallenged. And the latter isn't an option as far as I'm concerned.

So when do you plan on teaming up with fascists?

 

[Idris2002]

A prescient title Idris2002 Well played.

All in the game, yo.

 

[phildwyer]

So when do you plan on teaming up with fascists?

Never.

When do you plan to... y'know... sorta.... do something about capitalism maybe.... got any ideas.... maybe an idea about an idea.... no.... oh well, never mind, let's go and have a punch-up instead eh....?

 

[NoXion]

Never.

So, "post-modern Capital" isn't that great a threat then? What happened to left and right being obsolete, phil?

When do you plan to... y'know... sorta.... do something about capitalism maybe.... got any ideas.... maybe an idea about an idea.... no.... oh well, never mind, let's go and have a punch-up instead eh....?

I don't have to have any ideas of my own to know that being buddy-buddy with any bunch of loons or wannabe oligarchs that claim opposition to capitalism is a monumentally stupid idea.

 

[phildwyer]

I don't have to have any ideas of my own to know that being buddy-buddy with any bunch of loons or wannabe oligarchs that claim opposition to capitalism is a monumentally stupid idea.

Nobody's suggesting that, nobody's suggesting allying with Fascists.

What many sensible people are suggesting is that the so-called "Left" needs to broaden its alliances in such a way as to include a wide range of positions and people from beyond its ordinary sphere of influence. It doesn't mean abandoning all discrimination. It does mean re-thinking the traditional understanding of politics as a "spectrum" running from "Left" to "Right."

Can you give me a reason not to do that?

 

[NoXion]

Nobody's suggesting that, nobody's suggesting allying with Fascists.

Bullshit. You said:

"This isn't the time to be too picky about our allies. Anti-capitalists from every part of the political "spectrum" (as if that image still had any validity) need to bury their differences and focus on the task in hand."

Every part of the political spectrum includes fascists, some of whom claim opposition to capitalism. You didn't qualify that statement at all.

What many sensible people are suggesting is that the so-called "Left" needs to broaden its alliances in such a way as to include a wide range of positions and people from beyond its ordinary sphere of influence. It doesn't mean abandoning all discrimination.

"every part of the political spectrum"

Doesn't sound too discriminating to me.

It does mean re-thinking the traditional understanding of politics as a "spectrum" running from "Left" to "Right."

Can you give me a reason not to do that?

I actually think that the left-right spectrum is too one-dimensional on its own. But that is the difference between an incomplete model and the kind of political obscurantism you've been promoting here, not just in this thread but elsewhere.

 

[phildwyer]

Every part of the political spectrum includes fascists, some of whom claim opposition to capitalism. You didn't qualify that statement at all.

I'm qualifying it now, aren't I?

This kind of mad, paranoid McCarthyism is one of the least appealing aspects of today's so-called "Left." To put it very mildly. In an effort to keep the discussion civil.

the kind of political obscurantism you've been promoting here, not just in this thread but elsewhere.

I have no idea what you mean. Explain.

 

[NoXion]

I'm qualifying it now, aren't I?

Only after prompting which shouldn't have been necessary in the first place. Or did it seriously slip your mind that opposition to capitalism is not purely by itself a laudable political goal? There are worse systems that could replace the current state of capitalism.

This kind of mad, paranoid McCarthyism is one of the least appealing aspects of today's so-called "Left." To put it very mildly. In an effort to keep the discussion civil.

Being verbally challenged by a fellow poster hardly constitutes McCarthyism. Were you blacklisted, or put before a committee with legal powers over you? No? Then get the fuck over yourself, and stop diluting terms through improper usage.

I have no idea what you mean. Explain.

I've seen you pushing this "left and right are obsolete" guff on other threads. It's one of your brainbugs, it seems.

 

[Pickman's model]

I've seen you pushing this "left and right are obsolete" guff on other threads. It's one of your brainbugs, it seems.

it's a dwyerjug fact

 

[frogwoman]

What's ISIS's position on capitalism?

 

[Pickman's model]

What's ISIS's position on capitalism?

i don't suppose they have one, not seeming to me to be the sort of people who take a stand on that sort of thing. they seem to concentrate on house and garden sort of things, leaving the blue sky thinking to the individual believer.

 

[phildwyer]

Only after prompting which shouldn't have been necessary in the first place. Or did it seriously slip your mind that opposition to capitalism is not purely by itself a laudable political goal? There are worse systems that could replace the current state of capitalism.

There we disagree. There is nothing worse that could, as a matter of practical possibility, replace postmodern capitalism. The destruction (not "opposition") of capitalism is not only "a laudable political goal," it is the only laudable political goal under current circumstances. Anything else is an irrelevant distraction. Anti-fascism is just an excuse for a brawl as far as I can see.

Being verbally challenged by a fellow poster hardly constitutes McCarthyism.

It springs from the same dark place as McCarthyism. Your instinctive response to my saying that the Left/Right dichotomy is obsolete was to cast aspersions suggesting that I might be a Fascist, or have Fascist sympathies, or be trying to legitimize Fascism, or something equally outlandish and ridiculous. It's repellent behavior.

I've seen you pushing this "left and right are obsolete" guff on other threads.

You'll be seeing a lot more of it in future, and not just from me. This is an idea whose time has come.

 

[phildwyer]

What's ISIS's position on capitalism?

They take a very dim view of usury, which they equate with postmodern capitalism. Not entirely unreasonably as it happens.

[NB a McCarthyite would immediately seize upon that last statement as evidence that I am a secret ISIS supporter, or a sympathizer, or maybe a fellow-traveller etc. Let's see if there are any McCarthyites here.]

 

[Pickman's model]

They take a very dim view of usury, which they equate with postmodern capitalism. Not entirely unreasonably as it happens.

[NB a McCarthyite would immediately seize upon that last statement as evidence that I am a secret ISIS supporter, or a sympathizer, or maybe a fellow-traveller etc. Let's see if there are any McCarthyites here.]

more of a time-traveller than a fellow-traveller eith your anachronistic references

 

[NoXion]

There we disagree. There is nothing worse that could, as a matter of practical possibility, replace postmodern capitalism. The destruction (not "opposition") of capitalism is not only "a laudable political goal," it is the only laudable political goal under current circumstances. Anything else is an irrelevant distraction. Anti-fascism is just an excuse for a brawl as far as I can see.

It springs from the same dark place as McCarthyism. Your instinctive response to my saying that the Left/Right dichotomy is obsolete was to cast aspersions suggesting that I might be a Fascist, or have Fascist sympathies, or be trying to legitimize Fascism, or something equally outlandish and ridiculous. It's repellent behavior.

You get all huffy and indignant when I ask when you're teaming up with fascists, yet at the same time, even now, you claim there's nothing that could be worse than the current order and that the only political goal worth bothering with is the destruction of capitalism, without getting into the barest outlines as to what should follow that destruction. Which would logically mean that you think that the ends and means of fascists and any number of other reactionary groups are all acceptable so long as they accord with the destruction of capitalism.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't have fascist/reactionary sympathies. So... by what standard do you separate the wheat from the chaff?

 

[phildwyer]

You get all huffy and indignant when I ask when you're teaming up with fascists, yet at the same time, even now, you claim there's nothing that could be worse than the current order and that the only political goal worth bothering with is the destruction of capitalism, without getting into the barest outlines as to what should follow that destruction. Which would logically mean that you think that the ends and means of fascists and any number of other reactionary groups are all acceptable so long as they accord with the destruction of capitalism.

You must be reading in a hurry. I said that there was nothing worse that could, as a matter of practical possibility, replace postmodern capitalism. I didn't say there was nothing that could be worse in theory. Fascism would certainly be worse in theory, but it isn't a practical possibility under present circumstances. Do you see now?

by what standard do you separate the wheat from the chaff?

There are several standards that anti-capitalists would have to attain in order to join such an alliance. For one thing, they couldn't be racist. For another, they would have to believe in the wholesale (as opposed to partial) expropriation of capital. I think there are ten criteria altogether. Is that good enough for you?

 

[Humberto]

You get all huffy and indignant when I ask when you're teaming up with fascists, yet at the same time, even now, you claim there's nothing that could be worse than the current order and that the only political goal worth bothering with is the destruction of capitalism, without getting into the barest outlines as to what should follow that destruction. Which would logically mean that you think that the ends and means of fascists and any number of other reactionary groups are all acceptable so long as they accord with the destruction of capitalism.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you don't have fascist/reactionary sympathies. So... by what standard do you separate the wheat from the chaff?

Those with backward principles in terms of equality?

More consensus is needed first. We haven't even taken the first steps. I reckon on the trajectory our civilisation is going that should tip over towards to broader scepticism of the system.

 

[NoXion]

You must be reading in a hurry. I said that there was nothing worse that could, as a matter of practical possibility, replace postmodern capitalism. I didn't say there was nothing that could be worse in theory. Fascism would certainly be worse in theory, but it isn't a practical possibility under present circumstances. Do you see now?

Unlike you, I can't see into the future. All I know is that actions in the present can effect the future, and if those actions include acting in common cause with reactionaries, then it does not strike me that a future derived from such action is likely to be a rosy one, by my standards at least. But since it turns out you do have standards for this grand coalition of yours, it's a moot point really.

There are several standards that anti-capitalists would have to attain in order to join such an alliance. For one thing, they couldn't be racist. For another, they would have to believe in the wholesale (as opposed to partial) expropriation of capital. I think there are ten criteria altogether. Is that good enough for you?

Two out ten? Why not all of them?

Those with backward principles in terms of equality?

More consensus is needed first. We haven't even taken the first steps. I reckon on the trajectory our civilisation is going that should tip over towards to broader scepticism of the system.

It would be interesting to compare your consensus with dwyer's standards.

 

[frogwoman]

They take a very dim view of usury, which they equate with postmodern capitalism. Not entirely unreasonably as it happens.

[NB a McCarthyite would immediately seize upon that last statement as evidence that I am a secret ISIS supporter, or a sympathizer, or maybe a fellow-traveller etc. Let's see if there are any McCarthyites here.]

Usury again

Actually their propaganda does contain a bit of social equality type rhetoric tbh, at least that directed towards the Arab world. Which goes to show the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend

 

[frogwoman]

Anyone can and has said they are an anti capitalist, even elements of the Tory party have said that capitalism has gone too far, usually in the context of for example foreign firms buying up stuff

 

[frogwoman]

You must be reading in a hurry. I said that there was nothing worse that could, as a matter of practical possibility, replace postmodern capitalism. I didn't say there was nothing that could be worse in theory. Fascism would certainly be worse in theory, but it isn't a practical possibility under present circumstances. Do you see now?



There are several standards that anti-capitalists would have to attain in order to join such an alliance. For one thing, they couldn't be racist. For another, they would have to believe in the wholesale (as opposed to partial) expropriation of capital. I think there are ten criteria altogether. Is that good enough for you?

To be honest I can think of plenty of things that would be worse. And I don't think fascism or a mutated form of it is an impossibility. Sorry.

 

[J Ed]

Another potentially useful thread shit on

 

[yield]

They take a very dim view of usury, which they equate with postmodern capitalism. Not entirely unreasonably as it happens.

To be fair postmodern capitalism doesn't seem that keen on usury at the moment. With negative interest rates / yield investors are paying to lend people money

[NB a McCarthyite would immediately seize upon that last statement as evidence that I am a secret ISIS supporter, or a sympathizer, or maybe a fellow-traveller etc. Let's see if there are any McCarthyites here.]

Prof you remind me of Slavoj Zizek at Occupy all those years ago.

In answer to one question, he suggested that Organize Wall Street embrace the Tea Party rather than be seen as its opposite. “The tragedy is that many of the Tea Party people should be on our side,” he said. “That’s where we should work. They may be stupid, but don’t look at them as the enemy.”

The most interesting bit of advice may have been a little hard to parse for some, but given that this quickly spreading movement seems still to be in its infancy and unsure about how to proceed, it seemed especially worth pondering: “People often desire something but don’t really want it,” Mr. Žižek told the crowd. “Don’t be afraid to want what you desire.”

I do often wonder at time phildwyer what you'd really say heartfelt like if you weren't rolling.

 

[phildwyer]

I do often wonder at time phildwyer what you'd really say heartfelt like if you weren't rolling.

I'm always rolling.

 

[yield]

I'm always rolling.

No really phil. No bait thread, no bare words or fckffdwyr badges. Hand to heart.

You love winding up butchersapron and PM but you ain't stupid.