Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[Jay Park]

No one knows what Mohammed looked like. There are only vague descriptions, of uncertain provenance. You can't therefore know how to depict him. So if you draw a picture and give it a title 'Mohammed' that will offend some Muslims. If you give the same picture the title 'Fred' you won't upset them. It's not even the picture, but the supposed intent behind the picture which can prove fatal. Is that an idea that anyone should take seriously for one second?

I’ll send a shot of Nanker Phledge’s massive dong, draw a beard on it, and away you go son

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I’ll send a shot of Nanker Phledge’s massive dong, draw a beard on it, and away you go son

Probably time for bed.

 

[Jay Park]

Saturday night on the thread about a teacher getting beheaded. Hopefully jay park is just a bit pissed but the old look at me semitic is a language group is usually only done by people who are twats even when sober.

Noted

 

[Jay Park]

We need to get to the sort of world where ideas can be discussed and be discussed without bloodshed. Fuck giving into people who want to shut down discussion. And, yes, I'm generally against the way the west conducts itself in the ME too.

we don’t live in that world though, we live in a world where the selling of massively destructive weapons are perpetuated by our government through our own taxation.

 

[xenon]

my point is, twatty nutz, these very same values you and a few others are paying lip service to; freedom of speech, a well rounded education for children that encourages critical thinking, and open discourse, are the very same things you have denied myself.

You do the math.

me, who, us, has denied you freedom of speech education. my spelling, typing might be bad. But you are making no fucking sense. Who are you angry at here and why? This thread I mean. If you just having a bad night, fair enough..

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I’ll send a shot of Nanker Phledge’s massive dong, draw a beard on it, and away you go son

Do you think certain beliefs should be protected from ridicule? That's basically what you're saying here. Some kind of a blasphemy law like the one many people fought long and hard to get rid of here. Blair's ill-conceived hate speech laws come perilously close to this. Religious belief shouldn't be protected any more than political belief should be protected. That is the meaning of a secular society for me - you're free to follow your religion, but I must also be free to say what I like about that religion, up to and including poking fun at it.

Abandoning that idea in the face of violence is a pretty poor place to be. And let's not be under any illusions here about what those who perpetrate and encourage that violence want.

 

[Jay Park]

‘ we need ‘ come on folks, stop backing yourselves up on the PMs and let’s have it right.

 

[Jay Park]

Do you think certain beliefs should be protected from ridicule? That's basically what you're saying here. Some kind of a blasphemy law like the one many people fought long and hard to get rid of here. Blair's ill-conceived hate speech laws come perilously close to this. Religious belief shouldn't be protected any more than political belief should be protected. That is the meaning of a secular society for me - you're free to follow your religion, but I must also be free to say what I like about that religion, up to and including poking fun at it.

Abandoning that idea in the face of violence is a pretty poor place to be.

A secular society with a divine ruler as head of state. Don’t bend over too low before you next use the bathroom cos you probz gonna shart all over your beige chinos

 

[Jay Park]

Do you think certain beliefs should be protected from ridicule? That's basically what you're saying here. Some kind of a blasphemy law like the one many people fought long and hard to get rid of here. Blair's ill-conceived hate speech laws come perilously close to this. Religious belief shouldn't be protected any more than political belief should be protected. That is the meaning of a secular society for me - you're free to follow your religion, but I must also be free to say what I like about that religion, up to and including poking fun at it.

Abandoning that idea in the face of violence is a pretty poor place to be. And let's not be under any illusions here about what those who perpetrate and encourage that violence want.

I ain’t about abandoning the idea of discourse, but ridicule is something else entirely

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A secular society with a divine ruler as head of state. Don’t bend over too low before you next use the bathroom cos you probz gonna shart all over your beige chinos

France has a divine ruler?

Of course, the Uk has a way to go, and I don't defend the absurd vestiges of the old order. That's no reason not to push for more secularism. It's not like there haven't been significant successes. There have.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

we don’t live in that world though, we live in a world where the selling of massively destructive weapons are perpetuated by our government through our own taxation.

Yup, and I'm 100% against that too.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I ain’t about abandoning the idea of discourse, but ridicule is something else entirely

Well there we disagree. The right to ridicule political or religious ideas is an important one.

ETA: To be crystal clear, I'm talking about Charlie Hebdo here, not the teacher. It's not a teacher's place or job to ridicule anyone, and I have no doubt he wasn't. It is a teacher's job to open up this kind of discussion with their students, though, and get them thinking about these kinds of issues.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

lol Pickman's model liking people disagreeing with me again I see, just cos they're disagreeing with me. You're such a twat, pickers.

 

[Pickman's model]

Do you think certain beliefs should be protected from ridicule? That's basically what you're saying here. Some kind of a blasphemy law like the one many people fought long and hard to get rid of here. Blair's ill-conceived hate speech laws come perilously close to this. Religious belief shouldn't be protected any more than political belief should be protected. That is the meaning of a secular society for me - you're free to follow your religion, but I must also be free to say what I like about that religion, up to and including poking fun at it.

Abandoning that idea in the face of violence is a pretty poor place to be. And let's not be under any illusions here about what those who perpetrate and encourage that violence want.

Er in a secular society the church and state are separate, it has nothing to do with taking the piss out of religion - it is to do with the state not forcing a religion on you.

 

[Pickman's model]

lol Pickman's model liking people disagreeing with me again I see, just cos they're disagreeing with me. You're such a twat, pickers.

Pickers hasn't posted on this thread

You're really rather insecure if me liking posts riles you. And you're really rather stupid if you you actually believe all the shite you post. You affect an air of authority but a look at so many your posts reveals that is at best built on sand.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well there we disagree. The right to ridicule political or religious ideas is an important one.

There is no such right

Only a liberal - and a particularly dim one at that - would assert there was such a thing

 

[danny la rouge]

So you think 5 years after the Massacre at the Hebdo office, with the French military being one of the most prominent in bombing raids on the ME, is long enough to show kids incendiary pictures.

"Murder is wrong. But can you really blame beheader who kills a teacher because of a cartoon he finds offensive?"

 

[Humberto]

I get the impression that the primary motive (as with other faith followers who do similar things) is to curry favour with God. The rage is about personal profit rather than honour. So it is really pathetic and the great majority of people of all faiths and none can see that.

 

[Jay Park]

"Murder is wrong. But can you really blame beheader who kills a teacher because of a cartoon he finds offensive?"

Danny mate, I gotta lot of respect for you, but you know that’s not what I meant. And if it seems so, forgive me for my apparently cryptic message.

 

[Pickman's model]

I get the impression that the primary motive (as with other faith followers who do similar things) is to curry favour with God. The rage is about personal profit rather than honour. So it is really pathetic and the great majority of people of all faiths and none can see that.

based on the impression you get

well that's proof positive

 

[danny la rouge]

Danny mate, I gotta lot of respect for you, but you know that’s not what I meant. And if it seems so, forgive me for my apparently cryptic message.

You’ll need to have another run at it then. Apologies if I’ve misread you.

 

[Athos]

... in Islam, there should be no representation of Mohammed.

And why should schools follow the rules of Islam?

 

[Jay Park]

You’ll need to have another run at it then. Apologies if I’ve misread you.

im gonna step back. Like I have previously mentioned - and football threads aside - I’m here to learn, not antagonise.

 

[Jay Park]

There is no such right

Only a liberal - and a particularly dim one at that - would assert there was such a thing

there is no such right, I may sound pompous here but I’ve lived in Indonesia. And whilst it’s a different interpretation of the readings of Islam, faith is very much embedded in their culture.

there is no such right

 

[danny la rouge]

im gonna step back. Like I have previously mentioned - and football threads aside - I’m here to learn, not antagonise.

No worries. I’m supposed to have left the thread too.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

There is no such right

Only a liberal - and a particularly dim one at that - would assert there was such a thing

Don't we have the right to ridicule religions? If not, that's surprising. Religions are stupid, dangerous and sometimes downright evil. Why can't we take the piss out of them? Especially the most pathetic and misogynistic ones.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Don't we have the right to ridicule religions? If not, that's surprising. Religions are stupid, dangerous and sometimes downright evil. Why can't we take the piss out of them? Especially the most pathetic and misogynistic ones.

They also involve a bunch of fabricated facts (fake news from on high). You can take things on their terms and discuss their evidential base and their cosmological viewpoint. Just like with flat-earth enthusiasts. Or you can take the piss. Or both. In the meantime some of them will be threatening you with eternal damnation and pain. So, on balance, taking the mickey is quite mild behaviour.

 

[dylanredefined]

Then it's not the cartoons doing the beheading and shooting at police is it?

And you mean 'some muslims'.

The context of the debate was should we bow down to fanaticism. The presenter was suggesting this (showing the cartoons) is something peculiar to France and that others (such as us) may be more wise in not doing what France does.

A murderous nut job using his intrepratation of a religion as justification for his deranged actions. Better?
Though if you choose to follow a religion you risk being lumped in with the worse of you fellow believers.
Not offending someone by choice is one thing. Doing it out of fear is another.
Though that leads to arguments about censorship and boundaries.

 

[planetgeli]

Don't we have the right to ridicule religions? If not, that's surprising. Religions are stupid, dangerous and sometimes downright evil. Why can't we take the piss out of them? Especially the most pathetic and misogynistic ones.

It's complicated when you start talking about 'rights'. There is a right under the UN Declaration of Human Rights to freedom of thought and expression. But this conflicts with the law that says it must not cross over into religious hatred.

It might be better expressed by an anarchist as a kind of ethical responsibility to critique and, when necessary, satirize power elites (and organized religion is certainly a power elite). Especially those power elites that seek to enforce an ethical code on other people that help them control those people while not applying that code to their own behaviour.

 

[tim]

I get the impression that the primary motive (as with other faith followers who do similar things) is to curry favour with God. The rage is about personal profit rather than honour. So it is really pathetic and the great majority of people of all faiths and none can see that.

I get the impression that this sort of crime is incredibly rare, even in France, which is maybe when it does happen it gets huge media coverage. When it does happen it's also a good stick with which to strike an already demonised religious group. I think you'll find that both here and in France there have been moire hate crimes committed against Muslims including murder than vice-versa over the past year.