Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

[two sheds]

These attitudes are generally down to religion.

Not always - Russia, China?

Ultimately, a working society does depend on imposing some 'beliefs'.

For example, I think people should be made to alter there behaviour because of climate change - but that's more about science.

I'm not sure how imposing political beliefs are much different to imposing religious beliefs - it depends very much what the belief is and how repressive and what the people in the country themselves believe. The person imposing them believes they're right but that's no guarantee.

 

[two sheds]

I don’t think it’s anyone’s starting point. The question is to what extent should society and culture accommodate organised religion and it’s believers.

Ah ok - I was replying to this:

All religions are bullshit. If you feel the need to hurt others because you think your magic man in the sky is more real than another, you are a cunt.

In which case we're having a different discussion about a different question

 

[Dandred]

How do you suggest they be addressed?

Be honest that there is no god, spread the word.

 

[Spymaster]

Be honest that there is no god, spread the word.

Yes. That'll help.

 

[two sheds]

No mind, never matter,
never mind, no matter

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

No mind, never matter,
never mind, no matter

The stars are matter. We're matter. But it doesn't matter. (Captain Beefheart - now there was a true messiah)

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Absent the possibility of changing the world, what is the harm in taking the piss out of its many absurdities?

Does everything always have to have some higher purpose?

Sometimes showing that 'you're not alone in finding these things absurd' can be purpose enough.

 

[two sheds]

Absent the possibility of changing the world, what is the harm in taking the piss out of its many absurdities?

Does everything always have to have some higher purpose?

Sometimes showing that 'you're not alone in finding these things absurd' can be purpose enough.

I'm in favour of taking the piss out of our own absurdities, possibly gently somebody else's. But if someone for example starts a conversation with "You're a socialist? Marx was a bit of an anti-semite cunt wasn't he", you're led down a particular path that isn't all that promising.

 

[8ball]

No mind, never matter,
never mind, no matter

Isn’t that a mis-quote of a refutation of Hegelianism or something?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm in favour of taking the piss out of our own absurdities, possibly gently somebody else's. But if someone for example starts a conversation with "You're a socialist? Marx was a bit of an anti-semite cunt wasn't he", you're led down a particular path that isn't all that promising.

It's not always a conversation particularly with the person who is having the piss taken out of them, though. It's not necessarily evangelical in intention.

 

[two sheds]

Isn’t that a mis-quote of a refutation of Hegelianism or something?

I thought it was from Zen Flesh Zen Bones but apparently not

 

[Jay Park]

Absent the possibility of changing the world, what is the harm in taking the piss out of its many absurdities?

Does everything always have to have some higher purpose?

Sometimes showing that 'you're not alone in finding these things absurd' can be purpose enough.

and what is it about all this you find absurd? Emigration? Murder? Possibly mental health issues. Or the absurdity than an educator told his learners that they can leave if they don’t wanna see and discuss what he’s about to show?

 

[8ball]

and what is it about all this you find absurd? Emigration? Murder? Possibly mental health issues. Or the absurdity than an educator told his learners that they can leave if they don’t wanna see and discuss what he’s about to show?

Fuck’s sake. That last one isn’t an absurdity. Way back in the 80’s we had kids who would opt out of classes involving dissections.

No promising biology careers were harmed.

 

[Humberto]

A fair chunk of religious fundamentalists couldn't be reasoned with, that's true. Just as you couldn't reason with a police dog prepared to do exactly as it is told by those who trained/indoctrinated them. There has to be some hook or allure for this though. Othering of groups and communities may well be a factor. I don't know tbh. I would add the rise/growth of conspiracism as another possible factor.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

and what is it about all this you find absurd? Emigration? Murder? Possibly mental health issues. Or the absurdity than an educator told his learners that they can leave if they don’t wanna see and discuss what he’s about to show?

The fact that a teacher had his fucking head cut off because he showed some kids a drawing ranks as absurd in my book.

However, if you'd been following the conversation, you would have realised that I was making a much more general point.

And a point of order on the details of the murdered schoolteacher. M. Paty himself said that he didn't tell anyone they could or should leave. Given that he is now dead and much of the initial misinformation about the class came from a cunt who led a hate campaign against the murdered M. Paty, I think you should stop repeating that.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

I'm in favour of taking the piss out of our own absurdities, possibly gently somebody else's. But if someone for example starts a conversation with "You're a socialist? Marx was a bit of an anti-semite cunt wasn't he", you're led down a particular path that isn't all that promising.

Well islamic fundamentalism is wholly indigenous to the middle east and north africa isn't it. It was, not, you know, supported as a counterweight to communists and secularists in the middle east. Ive told this to lbj many times that the arc of progress didn't work like that in the ME - we've gone backwards, but hey, somehow islamic fundamentalism can be divorced from the defeat of the working class when its those brownies.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

the fetish some of youse have for democracy and freedom of speech in this thread would make you support Ikhwan if you lived in the M.E. Great work. It's like that Michel Houellebecq bloke, whose artistic career climaxes in writing a book where his protagonist ends up converting to islam (yeah really.) Despite his initial intentions being to mock islam. Obsession is not always a good thing, lads. I see islam as wholly profane cross class ideology and for that reason I don't take its metaphysical claims seriously, even as a philosophical experiment. something some people are evidently not able to do here.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Well islamic fundamentalism is wholly indigenous to the middle east and north africa isn't it. It was, not, you know, supported as a counterweight to communists and secularists in the middle east. Ive told this to lbj many times that the arc of progress didn't work like that in the ME - we've gone backwards, but hey, somehow islamic fundamentalism can be divorced from the defeat of the working class when its those brownies.

You love making up stuff I haven't said, don't you? I'm fully aware of the part you've bolded. the rest of us aren't quite the know-nothings you sometimes think we are.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

You love making up stuff I haven't said, don't you? I'm fully aware of the part you've bolded. the rest of us aren't quite the know-nothings you sometimes think we are.

You don't do a good job of convincing people otherwise. Almost think you're fundamentally religious, in denial. So yeah, 'love making up stuff' whatever, but get your act together and 'tidy your room' first.

 

[Jay Park]

The fact that a teacher had his fucking head cut off because he showed some kids a drawing ranks as absurd in my book.

However, if you'd been following the conversation, you would have realised that I was making a much more general point.

And a point of order on the details of the murdered schoolteacher. M. Paty himself said that he didn't tell anyone they could or should leave. Given that he is now dead and much of the initial misinformation about the class came from a cunt who led a hate campaign against the murdered M. Paty, I think you should stop repeating that.

the fact he was decapitated was many things, but an absurdity it was not

 

[Jay Park]

Fuck’s sake. That last one isn’t an absurdity. Way back in the 80’s we had kids who would opt out of classes involving dissections.

No promising biology careers were harmed.

bully for you and your exceptional science curriculum, wouldn’t even let us use the bunsen burners. Though they did allow us to make a fruit salad in HE.

many cheffing careers were harmed during that process

 

[Dandred]

Indeed, and if Dandred could be arsed to read the link I posted instead of dismissing it out of hand, he would see that telling people what they should believe entrenches otherness rather than alleviating it

I'm not saying people should be forced what to believe, however if you faith gives to you reason to behead people for a cartoon , maybe that faith isn't the best idea to live you life by.

 

[kabbes]

I'm not saying people should be forced what to believe, however if you faith gives to you reason to behead people for a cartoon , maybe that faith isn't the best idea to live you life by.

I agree.

Now, how are you going to translate that idea into successful action, rather than action that just makes you feel better about yourself but the actual situation worse?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I agree.

Now, how are you going to translate that idea into successful action, rather than action that just makes you feel better about yourself but the actual situation worse?

As a start, a resolute defence of secularism and the right to free expression for all.

 

[kabbes]

As a start, a resolute defence of secularism and the right to free expression for all.

I don’t think we disagree on that. We agree that something like this beheading cannot be responded to be in any way looking at the actions of the murdered man and in any way suggesting he had a part to play in his own murder.

However, the defence of secularism is a different thing than, for example, attempting to restrict religious practice through policy. Or telling all religious people that they are collectively unacceptable.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don’t think we disagree on that. We agree that something like this beheading cannot be responded to be in any way looking at the actions of the murdered man and in any way suggesting he had a part to play in his own murder.

However, the defence of secularism is a different thing than, for example, attempting to restrict religious practice through policy. Or telling all religious people that they are collectively unacceptable.

Sure. But a defence of secularism involves two things. A defence of your right to follow your religion, and a defence of my right to live free from any of the restrictions you might submit yourself to as you follow your beliefs. No blasphemy.

 

[kabbes]

Sure. But a defence of secularism involves two things. A defence of your right to follow your religion, and a defence of my right to live free from any of the restrictions you might submit yourself to as you follow your beliefs. No blasphemy.

I don’t know who or what you think you’re arguing against but it’s not me.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don’t know who or what you think you’re arguing against but it’s not me.

You asked about things to be done. About successful action right now. That's it.

I can give an example of less successful action if you like. Less successful action would be for instance the kind of thing Tony Blair did - quoting bits of the Qur'an to show that it is a religion of peace.

 

[kabbes]

You asked about things to be done. About successful action right now. That's it.

Yes, I asked the question to Dandred in the context of what Dandred has been saying.

 

[Dandred]

I agree.

Now, how are you going to translate that idea into successful action, rather than action that just makes you feel better about yourself but the actual situation worse?

That is a question which needs thought. I would have said allowing people to have freedom and rights was a step in that direction.

The magic man in the sky is far too powerful for the simple minded though.