Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Terrorist attacks and beheadings in France

You don’t do it by cementing a “them and us” mentality, for a start.

Choose the parts you have a moral objection to and focus on attacking those specific actions, I would say, with evidence and reason. No moral relativism but also no blanket dismissal.
Addressing your second bit, yes that's very fine. But you need to recognise that certain attitudes and beliefs are going to be resistant to evidence and reason. The principle that there is nothing wrong with being gay cannot be proved. This approach has its limits and could be seen in its own way to be as idealistic as Dandred's approach when applied clumsily.

I don't have brilliant answers to all of this, but that's one of the reasons why I stress the importance of the beginning point - in this particular instance, unequivocal solidarity with murdered teachers and murdered satirists.
 
Certainly, once you produce irrefutable proof that there isn't.

That's not how the burden of evidence works. If I say that X entity exists, then the burden is on me to demonstrate that. Especially if I claim that X entity wants you to do Y thing, or X entity will punish you.
 
That's not how the burden of evidence works. If I say that X entity exists, then the burden is on me to demonstrate that. Especially if I claim that X entity wants you to do Y thing, or X entity will punish you.
There are two things there that need to be separated.

For some people, the mere fact of existence is proof of god. I personally don't see how that adds anything, but some people feel it, feel that they know it to be true. However, they wouldn't be able to demonstrate it any more than I can entirely demonstrate to you that I'm not a zombie, that I have a point of view and consciousness like you do (assuming that you do).

That position can take the form of deism (it's how Einstein used the word 'god' more or less) with a non-interventionist, not directly knowable 'god', or at least not a directly communicable one. It's functionally identical to atheism, and it isn't really disprovable. It doesn't need to be - some kind of 'yeah, I can't fully explain experience either' can lead to a functional agreement about everything that matters.

But once the person says they know something about what their X entity wants, you're into entirely different territory. Precisely because they think there is something they can communicate about it. Then you are of course entitled to demand proof and to question the validity of any evidence that is presented as proof (be it a holy book or whatever). And the right to complete freedom in that questioning is a thing that is worth fighting for.
 
I think it's also silly to consider the motivations of these fuckers in terms of some Enlightenment debating club, the theology/philosophy is part of it but that not what the religious life is in all its varieties for a whole lot of people, wouldn't say it's even foundational despite what you'd expect.
 
I think it's also silly to consider the motivations of these fuckers in terms of some Enlightenment debating club, the theology/philosophy is part of it but that not what the religious life is in all its varieties for a whole lot of people, wouldn't say it's even foundational despite what you'd expect.
There is that as well. It's also a mistake to think that the fuckers are somehow acting under the instructions of their religion. It rather goes the other way. They find justification for their actions in the religion, but they're specifically looking for it. The same religious text can be used to justify all kinds of totally contradictory positions.
 
Certainly, once you produce irrefutable proof that there isn't.
Trouble is that if you apply this logic you end up not being able to say anything at all. "Santa Claus" does not exist. Prove it! Valhalla is an imaginary place. Prove it! My name is not Napoleon. Prove it! Etc ad nauseam.
The burden of proof lies with the extraordinary claim.
There is no God but Allah. Prove it! Well, an archangel told me about it, in private, when no one else was looking. Doesn't really work does it?
 
Last edited:
I used to say I'm agnostic but I'm a great believer in scientific method which means you have to accept the null hypothesis so you assume your hypothesis is incorrect until you find proof that it's correct.

So I decided that made me an atheist. But I'm a great believer in scientific method which means you have to accept the null hypothesis so you assume your hypothesis is incorrect until you find proof that it's correct.

Which I think makes me an agnostic. :)
 
I used to say I'm agnostic but I'm a great believer in scientific method which means you have to accept the null hypothesis so you assume your hypothesis is incorrect until you find proof that it's correct.

So I decided that made me an atheist. But I'm a great believer in scientific method which means you have to accept the null hypothesis so you assume your hypothesis is incorrect until you find proof that it's correct.

Which I think makes me an agnostic. :)
I'm agnostic in the same way that the man who coined the word, TH Huxley, was agnostic - ie don't believe something without reason to believe it. Same reasoning was used by the likes of Bertrand Russell with his flying teapot. Russell was also agnostic in the strict Huxleyan sense.

However, much to my dismay, I discover that many people don't understand the word agnostic in the strict Huxleyan sense. So I call myself atheist instead to avoid confusion.
 
That's not how the burden of evidence works. If I say that X entity exists, then the burden is on me to demonstrate that. Especially if I claim that X entity wants you to do Y thing, or X entity will punish you.
It isn't me that has a problem with whether God exists or not. :)
 
There is that as well. It's also a mistake to think that the fuckers are somehow acting under the instructions of their religion. It rather goes the other way. They find justification for their actions in the religion, but they're specifically looking for it. The same religious text can be used to justify all kinds of totally contradictory positions.
That’s precisely why it’s helpful to try to understand what socially has produced people desperate to murder rather than come at it from the perspective of “religion bad”.
 
That’s precisely why it’s helpful to try to understand what socially has produced people desperate to murder rather than come at it from the perspective of “religion bad”.
Yes, that doesn't mean the religion itself is nothing, mind. The way that the religions themselves have been socially produced and are now controlled or manipulated to further particular ends also needs to be understood. And certain religious systems - as socially produced - lend themselves to particular political end points far more than others.
 
Oh, I’m a long way from being an enthusiastic supporter of multiculturalism in all its forms. There are many ways of formulating multiculturalist theories, however. They don’t necessarily require separation of community identity — quite the reverse, in fact.

You’d hope not. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a meaningful discussion of such theories and their differences outside academia.
 
This from the nyt. have to partition for the non-subscribers as it exceeds the character limit.

France’s Dragnet for Extremists Sweeps Up Some Schoolchildren, Too
When France held a tribute to a teacher killed after a class on freedom of expression, the police interrogated at least 14 students over comments flagged as inappropriate.

By Norimitsu Onishi and Constant Méheut
Nov. 23, 2020

ALBERTVILLE, France — Armed with assault rifles and wearing balaclavas, dozens of police officers raided four apartments recently in a sprawling complex in Albertville, a city in the French Alps. They confiscated computers and cellphones, searched under mattresses and inside drawers, and took photos of books and wall ornaments with Quranic verses.
Before the stunned families, the officers escorted away four suspects for “defending terrorism.”
“That’s impossible,” Aysegul Polat recalled telling an officer who left with her son. “This child is 10 years old.”
Her son — along with two other boys and one girl, all 10 years old — was accused of defending terrorism in a classroom discussion on the freedom of expression at a local public school. Officers held the children in custody for about 10 hours at police stations while interrogating their parents about the families’ religious practices and the recent republication of the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad in the magazine Charlie Hebdo.
The fifth-grade classmates are among at least 14 children and teenagers investigated by the police in recent weeks on accusations of making inappropriate comments during a commemoration for a teacher who was beheaded last month after showing the cartoons in a class on freedom of expression.
Expand image captioned Sohib Harid, one of the detained children, returning home from school with his grandfather Messoud. He said he was afraid to speak in school after the police questioning.
ImageSohib Harid, one of the detained children, returning home from school with his grandfather Messoud. He said he was afraid to speak in school after the police questioning.
Credit...Andrea Mantovani for The New York Times
As France grapples with a wave of Islamist attacks following the republication of the Charlie Hebdo caricatures, the case in Albertville and similar ones elsewhere have again raised questions about the nature of the government’s response. It has already been criticized, inside and outside France, for actions and statements that have risked conflating ordinary French Muslims with people accused of extremism.
President Emmanuel Macron has fiercely rejected this criticism, blaming some Muslim and Western nations for failing to understand France’s deep-rooted secularism, known as laïcité. In an interview with a media columnist for The New York Times, Mr. Macron complained about what he saw as the world’s lack of support for France amid recent attacks and accused the American news media, including the Times, of “legitimizing this violence.”
To dispel misunderstanding, he invited journalists with questions on France to “call me. Call my team, call the ministers.’’ But after initially agreeing to an interview request for this article, the education minister, Jean-Michel Blanquer, declined Friday through a spokeswoman to speak, saying that he had already talked publicly about laïcité and considered The Times’s coverage biased.
The incidents in Albertville and elsewhere underscored the breadth of the government’s strong security response to the attacks, which has extended into the classroom and has drawn the criticism of organizations like the Human Rights League, one of the nation’s oldest rights groups. Calling the response disproportionate, the group asked, “Do children still have the right to speak?”
Sophie Legrand, a juvenile court judge and union official, said that France was going through a “complex period” during which law enforcement would be severely blamed for “missing a sign and failing to carry out an investigation.”
“But it could prove to be counterproductive if it’s really only repression, right away,” she said.
Still reeling from the beheading, teachers were given strict instructions to report the slightest inappropriate comment, and the police to investigate, according to interviews with teachers, union representatives, and police and judicial officials.
Expand image captioned Outside the Louis Pasteur elementary school.
Image

Credit...Andrea Mantovani for The New York Times
“We’re completely in a context where the instructions are to not overlook anything, even the most trivial fact,” said Emmanuel De Souza, a police commander who investigated the case of an 11-year-old in Saumur, in western France.
While the four children in Albertville are now back in school, the experience has left them traumatized, the parents said. The children are expected to follow an educational program under the justice ministry’s youth protection division, likely to focus on issues of citizenship.
One of the boys, Sohib Harid, wetted himself in his sleep after the raid and said he was now afraid to talk in school. “If I talk,” he said, “there will be the police.”
The children and teenagers got into trouble for speaking during classroom commemorations and discussions of Samuel Paty, the middle school teacher who was beheaded last month in a crime that shocked France and reopened the psychological wounds of attacks by Islamist terrorists that have left more than 250 dead in recent years.
In a nation with millions of public school students, the commemorations and discussions went well over all. But afterward, according to the education ministry, 400 incidents were reported, including 150 cases related to “defending terrorism.”
A justice ministry spokeswoman said that 14 minors had been held in custody or interrogated in police stations, though she added that the figure might not include reports from all local prosecutors. Cases involving the investigation of at least 17 minors have been reported in the French news media.
If convicted on charges of “defending terrorism,” minors would typically have to take a class on citizenship or follow a social program, though the sentences could be harsher for older teenagers and depending on the infraction.
 
This from the nyt. have to partition for the non-subscribers as it exceeds the character limit.

Expand image captioned Sohib, right, at home with his younger brother, Wail; his grandfather Messoud; and his father, Nabil.

Credit...Andrea Mantovani for The New York Times

In a Paris suburb, a 17-year-old who repeatedly expressed support for the slain teacher’s killer is expected to appear before an investigating judge. Near Marseille, two 16-year-old boys were arrested — one for endorsing the beheading, the other for refusing to stop listening to music with headphones during the minute of silence.

Of 17 cases that resulted in police investigations, seven involved Muslim students and one a Roman Catholic, according to interviews by The Times and the local news media; one had no religion, and the religion of the others could not be determined. In at least 14 of these cases, students were held in police custody, with most being accused of “defending terrorism.”

In France, public schools have played a central role in instilling national values, including laïcité, the strict secularism that separates religion from the state. So when Mr. Paty was decapitated, the killing was regarded as an attack on France and left a lasting trauma among teachers.

The education minister, Mr. Blanquer, asked all public schools to observe a minute of silence in tribute to the slain teacher on Nov. 2. A fierce advocate of laïcité, the minister warned that he would not tolerate disrespect.

“We are going to strengthen moral and civic education so that the stakes of the freedom of expression are explicit,” he said in a radio interview a few days later.

Beyond the minute of silence, teachers were given little guidance on how to discuss the killing in class, leading to confusion, according to several teachers and union officials.

“Everything was done in a rush without any real time for educational preparation,” said Sophie Vénétitay, a teacher and union official. She added that teachers were given little opportunity to resolve the incidents within the schools and with the parents, and that a judicial response prevailed.

Expand image captioned A building in the La Contamine neighborhood where the families live.

Credit...Andrea Mantovani for The New York Times

In a middle school near Nice, a 14-year-old girl was arrested, held in custody for eight hours and subjected to a full-body search after questioning the tribute to the teacher and then, during a following debate, saying that “he had asked for it.” The girl, who is not affiliated with any religion, apologized, said her mother, who asked to be identified only by her first name, Magali.

The mother said she disapproved of her daughter’s comments, but described them as “a teenager’s blunder.” Her daughter is now seeing a psychiatrist and refuses to go back to school.

The teenage girl has been summoned to appear before a prosecutor in January on a charge of “defending acts of terrorism,” according to court files obtained by The Times. She is expected to be sentenced to a multiday class on citizenship.

Lilia Parisot, an official at the Nice regional education authority who confirmed the incident, said that she had received clear guidelines from the education ministry to report any incident. “The orders were to overlook nothing,” she said.

Expand image captioned Ms. Yildirim and her husband, Servet, having breakfast. She has lived in France since age 6.

Credit...Andrea Mantovani for The New York Times

In Albertville, the four 10-year-olds belong to families — three of Turkish and one of Algerian descent — who have lived in the city for years. Some have older siblings who attended the same small primary school, Louis Pasteur.

In the classroom discussion, the teacher asked the pupils whether he, too, could be beheaded if he showed caricatures of Muhammad, according to interviews with two of the children, four mothers and two fathers.

Nathalie Reveyaz, an education official focusing on secularism in the region that includes Albertville, confirmed that the teacher had asked that question, placing it in the context of caricatures during the reign of Charlemagne.

The boys answered that the teacher could be beheaded, their parents said, but meant it as a statement of fact, not as a threat.

“The teacher said, ‘If I draw the prophet, what would you do?’” recalled Sohib, the boy now afraid to talk in class. “Well, I said, ‘There are other people who will come to kill you, like Samuel Paty.’”

Another boy, Yunus-Emre Akdag, said that in “Islam, we don’t have the right to kill. It’s God who can give life, and it’s God who can take it,” according to his mother, Mukaddes Akdag. Her son added in class, “If people show caricatures of our prophet, they will burn in the other world.”

Expand image captioned Mukaddes Akdag, second from right, the mother of one of the detained boys, chatting with neighbors near the Louis Pasteur school.

Image



Credit...Andrea Mantovani for The New York Times

The girl, Emira Yildirim, said she had expressed regret for the slain teacher, but added that “if he had not shown the caricatures, it wouldn’t have happened.”

The parents said that their children’s remarks contained no threat, but simply did not fit with what education officials wanted to hear in the current politicized climate.

“The children said what they thought,” said Emira’s mother, Zulbiye Yildirim.

Ms. Reveyaz, the education official, said, “The teacher was shocked, shaken,” adding that the comments could reflect “what the children were hearing within their families.”

The next day, the teacher became alarmed after finding an anonymous letter whose author remains unknown, she said. “T mort,” it read, “You’re dead.” The local prosecutor, Pierre-Yves Michau, was unavailable for an interview, his office said.

After the raid, while the children were in custody, the police asked the parents a series of questions: What did they think of the caricatures? Did they pray? Did they go to the mosque? Did they observe Ramadan? Did their husbands force them to wear veils?

“Strange questions,” Fatima Harid, Sohib’s mother, said, asking why questions about their religious practices were relevant. An officer told her that her son, who described himself as Muslim during questioning, should say “French Muslim” instead, she said.

But the incident has left the parents wondering whether they will ever be considered French.

The mother of Emira, Ms. Yildirim, 46, said she had lived in France since age 6 and had attended its public schools. Hers was an “integrated family,” she said. Residents of Albertville for 19 years, she and her husband, a builder, run a family construction business. She was active at the school, regularly volunteering on field trips. The couple even sent their oldest daughter and son, now in their 20s, to a private high school — a Catholic institution — for the quality of the education.

“I’m worried,” she said, dropping off Emira in front of the primary school the other morning. “I told my daughter, ‘You don’t say anything. When you’re asked a question in class, you say nothing.’”

Expand image captioned Ms. Yildirim getting ready to accompany Emira to school.

Image



Credit...Andrea Mantovani for The New York Times

Norimitsu Onishi reported from Albertville, and Constant Méheut from Paris.


 
Addressing your second bit, yes that's very fine. But you need to recognise that certain attitudes and beliefs are going to be resistant to evidence and reason. The principle that there is nothing wrong with being gay cannot be proved. This approach has its limits and could be seen in its own way to be as idealistic as Dandred's approach when applied clumsily.

I don't have brilliant answers to all of this, but that's one of the reasons why I stress the importance of the beginning point - in this particular instance, unequivocal solidarity with murdered teachers and murdered satirists.


You’ve been repeating yourself page after page and then

I don't have brilliant answers to all of this
 
French authorities charge four more students over beheading of Samuel Paty

Three of the four students charged Thursday were suspected of identifying Paty to his killer, 18-year-old Abdullakh Anzorov, who then tracked him down and beheaded him in a street near his school.

The three, who are between 13 and 14 years old, are being charged with "complicity in a terrorist murder," the source said.

The fourth is the daughter of the parent who launched a virulent online campaign against Paty denouncing the teacher's use of the cartoons published by satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo.

She has been charged with "slanderous denunciation" of Paty after relating her version of events in the classroom, though she did not actually attend his civics lesson.
 
French authorities charge four more students over beheading of Samuel Paty

Three of the four students charged Thursday were suspected of identifying Paty to his killer, 18-year-old Abdullakh Anzorov, who then tracked him down and beheaded him in a street near his school.

The three, who are between 13 and 14 years old, are being charged with "complicity in a terrorist murder," the source said.

The fourth is the daughter of the parent who launched a virulent online campaign against Paty denouncing the teacher's use of the cartoons published by satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo.

She has been charged with "slanderous denunciation" of Paty after relating her version of events in the classroom, though she did not actually attend his civics lesson.
I read that in the news today and thought it's one of the most fucked up things about this. That four kids would vent about this enough that it provokes a nutter to BEHEAD a guy.
 
"A French schoolgirl has admitted to spreading false claims about a teacher before he was murdered last year.
Samuel Paty was beheaded in October after showing students cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad.
The girl, whose complaints sparked an online campaign against Paty, has now admitted that she was not in the class."

So his lesson plans are irrelevant.
 
In not unrelated UK news...

1616681780299.png

The headteacher of a school in West Yorkshire has apologised to parents after a teacher displaying satirical cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad led to protests.

Gary Kibble, the head of Batley grammar school, apologised to parents for the inappropriate use of the cartoons, taken from the French satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo, during a religious studies lesson earlier this week which sparked a protest outside the school on Thursday morning.



“Upon investigation, it was clear that the resource used in the lesson was completely inappropriate and had the capacity to cause great offence to members of our school community for which we would like to offer a sincere and full apology,” Kibble said in an email sent to parents that promised further investigation.

Images on social media showed about 30 to 40 protesters outside the school, with police at the entrances to the school grounds and the road outside. The Huddersfield Examiner reported from the school that the protests were peaceful as children arrived, with the start of the school day delayed until 10am.
 
Gotta say, if that's true about a teacher "in hiding" it is disturbing, though.

He added: “We shouldn’t have teachers, members of staff of schools feeling intimidated, and the reports that a teacher may even be in hiding is very disturbing. That is not a road we want to go down in this country, so I would strongly urge people who are concerned about this issue not to do that.”
 
No comments yet from the teaching unions?
Can't see anything from them yet.

Meanwhile, the National Secular Society have given their 2p worth...

The National Secular Society called the demonstration an "attempt to impose an Islamic blasphemy taboo on a school".

The society's chief executive, Stephen Evans, said: "Teachers must have a reasonable degree of freedom to explore sensitive subjects and enable students to think critically about them.

"And the school's weak response will fuel a climate of censorship, which is brought on by attempts to force society as a whole to accommodate unreasonable and reactionary religious views."
 
Back
Top Bottom