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Tamsin bloody Omond

I appear to mostly agree with Lletsa on this thread.

other than this bit of course.
LLETSA said:
Environmental issues are real enough, but on the larger scale are unfortunately insoluble and will probably see us all off in the end. To assume or claim that with the right leadership or democratic control by working people, or some such, the issues can be solved, is simply mad delusion.
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Well there is an accepted MC way of using cutlery which is a dead giveaway if you don't know it. I recently someone who sees himself as above people (very unpleasant) but did not know how MC people hold a knife and a fork. I found myself sniggering inwardly thinking .. he thinks he knows it all (he was a know-it-all) but he does not!
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Your behaviour here encapsulates part of the spectrum of responses that might happen in that given social situation - the others being a kind of pity that is a kind of 'nice' patronisation, through to in/visible mocking. How would you feel if you felt everyone round the table was thinking this? The subject here sounds like the person at the 'bloody minded determination' end of the spectrum, but again, since one is unable to see into their mind, their bluster could just as easily be a social mask for feelings of deep insecurity. Regardless of this, do you now see how the social gap between the likes of Tamsin and others exists? You say that 'schools should teach children table manners' as a kind of leveller...well yes, that's a laudable aim, but then the kids just come home and find a deep divide between what they are learning in theory at school and the experience of dining in practice at home, which in turn leads to more insecurity - both for children and parents who can feel threatened that their children are learning something denied to them.
 
kyser_soze said:
You say that 'schools should teach children table manners' as a kind of leveller...well yes, that's a laudable aim
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No it's not, it's bollocks. It's like saying that school should teach everyone to speak with a middle class accent to help social levelling.
 
kyser_soze said:
OK, teaching some kids to eat with a knife and fork would be a laudable aim.
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And teaching them to brush their teeth and wipe their arse as well? Who doesn't know how to eat with a knife and fork? I mean, badly enough that it's a problem? Aha, you mean indian people who eat withtheir fingers, and chinese people who eat with chopsticks. It's worse than I thought :mad:
 
Random said:
And teaching them to brush their teeth and wipe their arse as well? Who doesn't know how to eat with a knife and fork? I mean, badly enough that it's a problem? Aha, you mean indian people who eat withtheir fingers, and chinese people who eat with chopsticks. It's worse than I thought :mad:
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Whatever.
 
ymu said:
Is there a middle-class way of holding a knife and fork? :confused:
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I think weltweit was referring to dinner etiquette, such as cutlery selection and use.

Random - I can only relate my mum's experience as an infant school TA a few years ago when there were kids coming in at 4 (from white families) who had to be taught to use a knife, fork and spoon. But clearly her experience of this doesn't accord with yours. The accusation of implied racism was nice too.
 
kyser_soze said:
I think weltweit was referring to dinner etiquette, such as cutlery selection and use.

Random - I can only relate my mum's experience as an infant school TA a few years ago when there were kids coming in at 4 (from white families) who had to be taught to use a knife, fork and spoon. But clearly her experience of this doesn't accord with yours. The accusation of implied racism was nice too.
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How many smilies do I have to use to indicate that I'm not being seriousl, you dope?
 
Random said:
And teaching them to brush their teeth and wipe their arse as well? Who doesn't know how to eat with a knife and fork? I mean, badly enough that it's a problem? Aha, you mean indian people who eat withtheir fingers, and chinese people who eat with chopsticks. It's worse than I thought :mad:
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White kids at the primary school where my other half teaches (these are not reception age children); they very rarely use cutlery at home.

Louis MacNeice
 
IMO four years old is too young to go to school, you'll have kids at that age who can't wipe their own arese either. But this is a long way from some kind of social class levelling nonsense.
 
Random said:
Unsurprising, since LLETSA is arguing like a moralistic hippy here :p
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The only thing that's surprising is that you are being uncharacteristically moronic.

For example, I haven't said anything even remotely moralistic.
 
LLETSA said:
Which experts are these then?
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I'm guessing that you're rubbishing Stuart Hall et all. The people who've spent years discussing the models of how media influences people. A discussion that apparently you don't want to have because it's all so 'obvious' and you'd rather claim that people like me think that the mass media has no effect, despite my stated view to the contrary. Has too much MTV rotted your brain?
 
Random said:
I'm guessing that you're rubbishing Stuart Hall et all. The people who've spent years discussing the models of how media influences people. A discussion that apparently you don't want to have because it's all so 'obvious' and you'd rather claim that people like me think that the mass media has no effect, despite my stated view to the contrary. Has too much MTV rotted your brain?
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I haven't rubbished Stuart Hall. I've suggested that he may not necessarily be right. After all, the study referred to was a long time ago when the media was less pervasive.

You and others might not have said the media has no effect on peoples' behaviour, but you certainly come close.

You still haven't said how I'm being moralistic.
 
LLETSA said:
You and others might not have said the media has no effect on peoples' behaviour, but you certainly come close.
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Nonsense, all I've done is ask you to actually explain how you think the media affects people, and all you've said is that it's 'obvious' and that it 'must' have an overwhelming effect. If it really is one of the defining social forces of our time then I'd hope you could say a bit more than that. And you then call me moronic.

LLETSA said:
You still haven't said how I'm being moralistic.
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I said you're arguing 'like' a moralistic hippy, and your criticism of the TV does seem to be just as shallow as that of any hippy.
 
Random said:
I said you're arguing 'like' a moralistic hippy, and your criticism of the TV does seem to be just as shallow as that of any hippy.
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Yes-but that's where you're wrong in that, as I keep having to say, I've said nothing remotely moralistic.
 
What do Hall et al say about the impact the media does have? I watch the way TV etc here are saturated with this new urban middle class consumerist lifestyle, and even amongst a population who are no mugs and used to reading between the lines of the overt messages of the media, the endless bombardment is changing values (not alone obviously, but part of it).
 
Random said:
Nonsense, all I've done is ask you to actually explain how you think the media affects people, and all you've said is that it's 'obvious' and that it 'must' have an overwhelming effect. If it really is one of the defining social forces of our time then I'd hope you could say a bit more than that. And you then call me moronic.
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It is, in actual fact, politically moronic to suggest that the media is not one of the defining forces of our time. After all, not very long ago it was a staple complaint of most people with left-wing inclinations that the constant barrage of propaganda for consumer capitalism, both crude and highly subtle, had a demobilising effect on people, and this in a time when the media was much smaller and limited in scope.

I can't believe that you really need it explaining to you how it all works.
 
JimW said:
What do Hall et al say about the impact the media does have? I watch the way TV etc here are saturated with this new urban middle class consumerist lifestyle, and even amongst a population who are no mugs and used to reading between the lines of the overt messages of the media, the endless bombardment is changing values (not alone obviously, but part of it).
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At last-somebody with a grasp of reality.
 
LLETSA said:
It is, in actual fact, politically moronic to suggest that the media is not one of the defining forces of our time. After all, not very long ago it was a staple complaint of most people with left-wing inclinations that the constant barrage of propaganda for consumer capitalism, both crude and highly subtle, had a demobilising effect on people, and this in a time when the media was much smaller and limited in scope.
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So that's a no, then? You don't actually have ananalysis beyond what you're saying about capitalism being 'beamed' into people.
 
JimW said:
What do Hall et al say about the impact the media does have? I watch the way TV etc here are saturated with this new urban middle class consumerist lifestyle, and even amongst a population who are no mugs and used to reading between the lines of the overt messages of the media, the endless bombardment is changing values (not alone obviously, but part of it).
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I think Hall's theory is about how the cultural meaning of the media is not just what the media producers want, but it's also influenced by how it's received and interpreted.

In China who's pushing the urban middle class lifestyle? Is it seen as something that all Chinese should aspire to? We're talking still about mostly state-run media here, aren't we? Although I suppose the old CCP values have already been influenced by decades of capitalist roaders and now outright entrepreneurs in the leadership.
 
Straight into the bunfight :D
It's similar to the problem I have with the argument about violent video games. I get that it's clearly not a straight case of swallowing the surface 'message', that exactly how it's done counts for a lot and that people read it various ways, but to say that at some level ideas aren't propagated seems to deny culture. With the consumer thing here, it's the normalisation of a lifestyle that's in fact available to a tiny percentage of the population. Everyone knows that, but somehow even while we all laugh at the crappy moralistic plots of the TV dramas etc, the underlying portrayal of 'how modern people live' seeps through.
On preview - hope that answers your question to some extent.
 
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