As I said-are you really unable to see how twenty-four hour images of unattainable wealth, status and glamour, as well as both overt and subtle political proapganda for the existing order, affect the outlook and mood of the millions who daily absorb the messages, whether willingly or not? I think that, in actual fact, rather than demanding explanations of the obvious from others, it's up to you to explain how they dont.
Tamsin bloody Omond
- Thread starter danbreen
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As I said-are you really unable to see how twenty-four hour images of unattainable wealth, status and glamour, as well as both overt and subtle political proapganda for the existing order, affect the outlook and mood of the millions who daily absorb the messages, whether willingly or not? I think that, in actual fact, rather than demanding explanations of the obvious from others, it's up to you to explain how they dont.
JimW
支那暗杀团
On who's doing it - it's a poison mix of the state tightly controlling the meta-narrative in the cack-handed way of the old-style censors (knew someone who sat in on classes at the film academy where they talked about the right and wrong way to portray 'common folk') with unbridled commercial interests left to have their way in all those bits not seen to directly challenge state power - product placement, the normalisation of bourgeois lifestyles, a focus on image (used to regularly see people popping up the shops in the pyjamas, now you can't leave the house without gelling your hair like a K-pop star) etc.
You what? He's mentioned in a different context what I've been banging on about since yesterday, that's all.
How it's received and interpreted is surely reflected in the political and lifestyle choices of the majority?
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
As you've said earlier, there's also a lot of anti-capitalist culture in the mass media. But apparently this doesn't have the same 'obvious' effect.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Is the nationalist narrative more prevelant in print media, or as pervasive as the lifestyle stuff on TV? From your description, Chinese telly sounds a bit like US TV in the 1950s - normalisation of the nuclear famliy and so on.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Just because two things appear next to each other doesn't mean it's 'obvious' that one is causing the other.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Surely there's still only a few people who have a place where they can buy hair gel? This is an idealised urban lifestyle for those who are already urban?
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Based on your idea about the overwhelming power of the media, we could expect that people in China would be apathetic and demobilised, but that's not the case, is it?
It does actually. Although it may affect people in different ways, the overall effect is to dilute the message by making it just another interesting piece of minority viewing.
As I said, there are more celebrity critics of capitalism than ever before, yet capitalism has never been more politically dominant for over a century.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
That's an interesting parallel. I suppose China is going through the same major industrialising boom as the US did during and after the war, only China's actually allowed to do it during peacetime, and with a stronger central state.
Better ask Jim. But if you think capitalism in China is seriously being challenged think again.
In any case, I haven't said that everybody is affected in the same way. Even here not everybody is politically apathetic and demobilised. But, as with China, just because people are politically active, it doesn't necessarily mean that they reject the values of the system. As I said somewhere above, the same consumerist values have heavily permeated left politics too.
Just because people behave in a diversity of ways, it doesn't mean that the messages aren't being absorbed.
Surely you can see that it's being pushed as something to aspire to? It doesn't matter whether something is actually attainable as long as enough people go along with it.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
It could just as 'obviously' mean that the lifestyle choices of people in the UK is creating the nature of the modern media. As it happens I think either version is too simplistic.
JimW
支那暗杀团
They do big spectactulars with their cock-eyed take on history (film called Founding of a Nation not so long back and various civil/revolutionary war dramas spring to mind). Again, my sense is everyone knows that the party is warping history (just a bit!) but as the technical skills and budget have improved they're watchable for the acting and explosions. That would be a message I doubt goes through straight though - bit more independent films like Devils on the Doorstep even manage to make not all Japanese cardboard baddies. Watched some of the Cultural Revolution era ones, and with a far more upfront propaganda purpose, a lot of them are better because they more honest and made by people who believed what they were preaching, not the cynical starlet-shaggers and coke fiends making this lot, who probably laugh all they way to the bank at the toss they churn out.
I can't really prove me thesis tbh, but what you say about the US in '50s sounds about right - not so much the story or whatever values are evident in the script, but the whole context is what's pervasive and does get to people, comparing your life to these fictional ones.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I am not going to defend that last paragraph because I can now see that it is badly written, i.e. not what I intended.
But I recall another situation, I took a young engineer to visit some German customers. During the day we had lunch with the customer in their canteen. At a point during the lunch I noticed all the customers (about 4 or 5 of them) were looking at my young engineer with quizical expressions on their faces. I also looked and noticed that he was holding his knife and fork like daggers and was appearing to struggle with actually eating any food. The Germans did not say anything and I don't think my engineer had realised that everyone had been looking at him, but I felt very embarrassed for him.
Is there a social divide between Tamsin and others, well iirc she was born to upper middle class parents and has been to Oxbridge so yes, there is likely a possible divide. Should it prevent her from taking up various causes that she seems to be interested in?
As to table manners, I would like that a standard table manners be taught at school. Kids can revert to whatever is expected at home but they would learn at school a knowledge that might stand them in good stead if they are eating out or eating in a social situation.
You seem to be taking the attitude of the media baron here: 'We're simply giving the masses what they want.'
JimW
支那暗杀团
Yeah, I'm obviously over-doing it a bit for rhetorical effect and I don't get out to the countryside as much as I did, but last few times I did you could see the young people there doing cheap knock-off versions (and hairdressing is the national religion even in the smallest one horse town, so the gel may well have made it).
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
For someone who throws around the term 'moronic' you don't seem to have perfected the art of reading both sentences of a post before commenting.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
JimW: I can't claim ownership on that comparator - the book I linked to earlier (Dreamworld & Catastrophe) compares & contrasts the cinema & TV of the USA & USSR from the 20s onwards and looks at how they were both critical elements in the development of what the author calls 'blueprrint or utopian societies', and from what you'd written it seemed an apposite comparison with China too.
How do the emerging Chinese 'middle class' view those who produce their stuff, like hair gel? Guilt, fear and hatred?
JimW
支那暗杀团
There's definitely a horrible prejudice against migrant workers, though I try to avoid the middle classes where possible so can't say I've done a broad survey of views.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
I suppose one aim of this kind of 'aspirational' national culture is to see everyone as the same, every street vendor a potential supermarket owner, so that the rich are just seen as successful.
Just thinking about the proles revolting over the last few years (probably just seen as plain revolting to a lot of pretensions aspirants) but even the more aware among them must make a connection between their relative comfort and the squalor of millions. Any examples of Beanery in a Chinese context?
You might have said either version is too simplistic, but your line of argument in this thread does tend towards the 'giving the people what they want' kind of justification.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I've had similar experiences - once out at a client lunch with a manager, we'd finished eating and she just sat her cutlery at right angles, not together, and while no one said anything the two client representatives exchanged 'looks'.
Which can then cause the kids problems at home if their parents don't have the same skillsets. This situation is more readily recognisable in 'first child at university' experiences. Tony Harrison's poem V, and much of his ealier work sums it up better than any worthy treatise on the matter:
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Oh stop being such a moron.