SUVs make up more than 40% of new cars sold in the UK – while fully electric vehicles account for less than 2%

[editor]

I prefer to judge each car on its own merits rather than throwing my toys out of the pram when a manufacturer assigns a particular label to what any reasonable person would regard as a reasonably-sized car.

I'm not aware of any car designed for city use which isn't also required to satisfy crash regulations designed for high-speed collisions, for example on motorways. This is as it should be and is why cars primarily designed for city use should not be getting smaller.

So you think it's OK for some cars to get bigger and heavier (and thus needlessly pollute more) while the world burns due to climate change.

So what cars are OK and why? And if you care about the environmental crisis, why aren't you questioning the current ongoing trend for cars to keep on getting bigger?

 

[newme]

People are going to buy the vehicle they think they need (limited only by their budget) My Audi despite its size is actually the smallest vehicle I've owned in a while. I've mostly had people carriers for the past couple of decades because I have four children and needed to lug them and a large amount of their crap around. Even now I need a good sized car because I often need to move 4 or 5 adults about.
People are not going to buy a small car because they live in the city when they feel they need a bigger one. There is a market for smaller vehicles yes but people can't be forced to buy them if they're not suitable. Besides the size of a car is determined mostly by engineering constraints not social or political ones. Whilst moving towards more environmentally friendly vehicles is good of course, the best way to reduce car usage especially in cities is improved public transport. (And even as a car driver I support that).
When Mrs Q and I went to Geneva earlier this year, the trains, trams and buses were clean, efficient and above all else they were free. This is what we should be aiming for.

I'd love an electric people transporter as we need to move stuff a lot and have a dog and kids so it's a jam at the moment. Tip run means it's just me and SO and still quite limited. Can't pickup local stuff available to reuse as no space, was free top soil and other things we couldn't put in it in a quantity worth the drive. So it came via a delivery van from miles away.
Our public transport here is non existent. Bus goes to two nearby towns only. With 3 trips a day out total and 3 back. All at inconvenient times. When I was not wfh I had to walk 45mins for a 15 min train then 15 min walk the other end to be in on time until I got a motorbike then it took 20mins. Can't even find a decent 125cx equivalent electric motorbike for a reasonable price. Let alone the extremely large version I need for my height and back. I'm limited to one model only. My daughter had a similar problem from being too short. Edge cases occur all the time especially in rural areas. My neighbour needs a Land rover for work, over the road have work vans for the same reason. They aren't moving to electric when it's way more expensive, personally or for the company.

 

[Winot]

People are going to buy the vehicle they think they need (limited only by their budget) My Audi despite its size is actually the smallest vehicle I've owned in a while. I've mostly had people carriers for the past couple of decades because I have four children and needed to lug them and a large amount of their crap around. Even now I need a good sized car because I often need to move 4 or 5 adults about.
People are not going to buy a small car because they live in the city when they feel they need a bigger one. There is a market for smaller vehicles yes but people can't be forced to buy them if they're not suitable. Besides the size of a car is determined mostly by engineering constraints not social or political ones. Whilst moving towards more environmentally friendly vehicles is good of course, the best way to reduce car usage especially in cities is improved public transport. (And even as a car driver I support that).
When Mrs Q and I went to Geneva earlier this year, the trains, trams and buses were clean, efficient and above all else they were free. This is what we should be aiming for.

People always say the bit in bold yet where I live (Brixton; Zone 2 London) public transport is about the best it can be in the UK and yet loads of people around us have large cars and drive them around a lot. Of everyone I know in London, two households have given up their car (us and one other family).

Carrots don't work without sticks.

 

[editor]

People always say the bit in bold yet where I live (Brixton; Zone 2 London) public transport is about the best it can be in the UK and yet loads of people around us have large cars and drive them around a lot. Of everyone I know in London, two households have given up their car (us and one other family).

Carrots don't work without sticks.

Most people are just too used to the convenience of cars and will continue to use them until such a day as the penalties become unaffordable.

The vast majority of cars on my 'A Road' city street have just one person sat in them and they're often in slow moving traffic belching out fumes

There's a ridiculous amount of public transport available so I'm pretty sure that a fair few of those journeys aren't exactly necessary in a climate crisis.

 

[newme]

People always say the bit in bold yet where I live (Brixton; Zone 2 London) public transport is about the best it can be in the UK and yet loads of people around us have large cars and drive them around a lot. Of everyone I know in London, two households have given up their car (us and one other family).

Carrots don't work without sticks.

That's people with plenty of money to do so. Very rich people will ignore parking entirely as its an irrelevant cost. More people would be affected if it was aimed at improving where the income is far lower.

Most people are just too used to the convenience of cars and will continue to use them until such a day as the penalties become unaffordable.

The vast majority of cars on my 'A Road' city street have just one person sat in them and they're often in slow moving traffic belching out fumes

There's a ridiculous amount of public transport available so I'm pretty sure that a fair few of those journeys aren't exactly necessary in a climate crisis.

Where is all this public transport? Cos its not most of the country.

 

[pbsmooth]

there's also the factor of road noise. I spent the weekend within earshot of an A road, despite being in a fairly rural countryside area. I am sure the noise from the road has markedly increased. more cars, heavier cars, probably worsening road quality. all of which are a real negative for people who live close to major roads, which i seem to remember is a fairly high proportion of the population.

 

[Winot]

That's people with plenty of money to do so. Very rich people will ignore parking entirely as its an irrelevant cost. More people would be affected if it was aimed at improving where the income is far lower.

Sorry I don't understand what your first and third sentences mean.

 

[souljacker]

Where is all this public transport? Cos its not most of the country.

London obv.

 

[editor]

That's people with plenty of money to do so. Very rich people will ignore parking entirely as its an irrelevant cost. More people would be affected if it was aimed at improving where the income is far lower.

Where is all this public transport? Cos its not most of the country.

I was clearly referring to my street and my area.

 

[newme]

I was clearly referring to my street and my area.

The thread appeared to be referring to the UK by the title and statistics.

 

[platinumsage]

So you think it's OK for some cars to get bigger and heavier (and thus needlessly pollute more) while the world burns due to climate change.

So what cars are OK and why? And if you care about the environmental crisis, why aren't you questioning the current ongoing trend for cars to keep on getting bigger?

They've been getting bigger for reasons, and I think most of those reasons are valid. Anyone concerned about the climate crisis might be better off focusing on big things that are achievable in decarbonising transport, such as removing the barriers to on-shore wind, so that electric cars don't result in us importing more LNG from Australia.

Haranguing people for having a car that is 9cm taller than another one seems a bit silly really.

 

[editor]

They've been getting bigger for reasons, and I think most of those reasons are valid. Anyone concerned about the climate crisis might be better off focusing on big things that are achievable in decarbonising transport, such as removing the barriers to on-shore wind, so that electric cars don't result in us importing more LNG from Australia.

Haranguing people for having a car that is 9cm taller than another one seems a bit silly really.

There is no fucking excuse for cars going up by 100kg in 10 years, but let's hear your 'valid' reasons why people need heavier, bigger and generally over engineered cars for the city streets.

The bigger and heavier they become, the more resources they use up and the bigger the environmental impact over smaller, lighter cars.

In succumbing to market pulls for heavier cars and SUVs, car manufacturers are advancing in a direction that causes significant harm to the environment, a report from Green NCAP has found. Heavier vehicles bring increased greenhouse gas emissions through their more intensive production, maintenance requirements and energy consumption, and with the average weight of cars sold in Europe increasing by 100kg over the last ten years, the climate is bearing the brunt of this trend.

Green NCAP used the average mileage data of 27 EU countries and the UK - along with how each country generates its energy - to calculate the overall environmental impact of producing and owning 34 new cars. The study finds an obvious upward trend of lifetime greenhouse gas emissions and energy demand against vehicle weight, and while electric cars perform 40–50 per cent better than ICE models in the former, the gap closes significantly in terms of their energy demand.

Average car weight climbs 100kg in 10 years with huge impact on emissions | Evo

Market trends for larger, heavier cars and SUVs are having a profound effect on the climate, according to Green NCAP’s findings

www.evo.co.uk

Electric vehicles and electrification in general offer huge potential in reducing greenhouse gases, but the ever-increasing trend of heavier vehicles diminishes this prospect.
To counteract this, Green NCAP calls on manufacturers to reduce the mass of their products and calls on consumers to make purchasing decisions that not only consider the powertrain of their new cars, but also consider their weight.

The popularity of SUVs in recent times is certainly a factor in the 100kg average car weight increase in Europe, and according to Green NCAP, the environmental impact of this is equivalent to an extra 200,000 cars on European roads.

 

[stavros]

A car that is too long for a parking space won't even fit in two spaces.

So they need to park lengthways, so as not to encroach onto the passing lane in the car park. That may require two spaces, maybe more. Either way they need to keep the car within the parking area, and pay for the number of spaces they require.

 

[MickiQ]

Heavier cars are pretty much inevitable nor is it necessarily a bad thing. Lithium-ion batteries weigh about 7-8kg per kwh of capacity with 1kwh giving 2-4 miles range. Bahnhof Strasse electric wankpanzer is about a full ton heavier than the diesel version but it's environmental impact is lower than the one pumping out CO2 and NO2. Batteries take up more room than an ICE and a fuel tank though of course unlike those you can shape batteries to make them fit into odd spaces. Maybe in the longer run the ICE will make a comeback when we can mass produce hydrogen (which means cracking fusion first) but in the meantime batteries (maybe with some input from eco-fuels manufactured from air and water for things like planes and ships) are the way to go.
Restrictions on what sort of vehicles people can own either in general or by postcode just not happening. The ULEZ expansion (it's today I believe) is proof enough of that.

 

[agricola]

Haranguing people for having a car that is 9cm taller than another one seems a bit silly really.

I disagree, I think it is a lot easier for people to understand how messed up the system is when starting from a criticism of big cars in general and SUVs in particular - they do after all cause needless inconvenience to a lot of people, from other car drivers to cyclists to people wanting to use a supermarket car park. The degree of selfishness that comes from buying an SUV nowadays is after all not unrelated to a lot of car ownership too.

It should be really easy for this government in particular and governments in general to bring in tax incentives against their use as well - they cause more damage to the road, more damage to the people and objects they hit and if unchecked will require businesses and everyone else to pay more out to cope with them. Government spending will have to increase as the result of them and they must be made to pay for it.

Still, I would much rather see people understand what an absolute trap car ownership is to themselves and the dangers it poses to other people (including their kids and grandkids) but that isn't happening anytime soon, as we see with all the protests around dummies potentially being removed (via ULEZ).

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It should be really easy for this government in particular and governments in general to bring in tax incentives...

They have, my >3ton SUV has a BIK rate of just 2%, 50% rebate on the VAT and all costs associated with it come off the corporation tax, makes it essentially free

 

[agricola]

They have, my >3ton SUV has a BIK rate of just 2%, 50% rebate on the VAT and all costs associated with it come off the corporation tax, makes it essentially free

... which is just madness.

 

[editor]

They have, my >3ton SUV has a BIK rate of just 2%, 50% rebate on the VAT and all costs associated with it come off the corporation tax, makes it essentially free

You sound proud of yourself. What SUV do you own?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

You sound proud of yourself. What SUV do you own?

I don't own one, rather lease a Q8 etron.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I will probably never truly grasp just how cheap life is when you're rich.

I can't get tax back on my car because I only need it to get to work at my actual job. Can't pretend to be a corporation to dodge taxes because, again, actual job.

 

[editor]

I wonder what percentage of single person car journeys in cities could be done by this cheap car (with people renting bigger vehicles when needed). Either way, this is absolutely the kind of car that should become totally normalised on our streets along with small electric vans and cargo bikes.

No one needs to drive big, heavy, aggressive fashionable SUVs through crowded streets and this argument that people need over-engineered excessively tall cars for their safety is an incredibly selfish attitude.

Drive one of these around and you'll soon be respecting everyone's safety, not just your own. It also needs no road tax.

It’s a completely joyful thing to potter around town in. Everybody loves it, and it generates the kind of feel good not possible even in a supercar. Basically the Ami is whatever the opposite of over-compensation is, albeit only for people who commute short distances. And where they very much don’t have to drive on fast A-roads or motorways. Mainly because it’s illegal in a ‘car’ this small and slow...

Citroen Ami Review 2023 | Top Gear

Yes, it’s a rubbish ‘car’... because it isn’t one. But it is fun to use and an entirely loveable object

www.topgear.com

Citroen Ami: £19.99 per month (plus £2,747 upfront), 46-mile electric range

Looking for a tiny, super-affordable electric car? Welcome to the Citroen Ami, the cheapest electric car that can cover up to 46 miles

www.buyacar.co.uk

 

[platinumsage]

I wonder what percentage of single person car journeys in cities could be done by this cheap car (with people renting bigger vehicles when needed). Either way, this is absolutely the kind of car that should become totally normalised on our streets along with small electric vans and cargo bikes.

No one needs to drive big, heavy, aggressive fashionable SUVs through crowded streets and this argument that people need over-engineered excessively tall cars for their safety is an incredibly selfish attitude.

Drive one of these around and you'll soon be respecting everyone's safety, not just your own. It also needs no road tax.

^^ That's not a car it's a quadricycle. I assume anyone who owns one and ever needs to drive out of a city (or within a city on a >30mph road) will therefore run it in addition to another car. As the vast majority of people who drive in cities sometimes might want to drive out of cities, its sale in the UK will increase the number of motor vehicles on the road and the number of cars per household in cities.

 

[platinumsage]

Anyway I'm now SUV-free as my only car was whisked off to auction this morning.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Anyway I'm now SUV-free as my only car was whisked off to auction this morning.

Whoever said you can't reach hearts and minds on U75!

 

[editor]

^^ That's not a car it's a quadricycle. I assume anyone who owns one and ever needs to drive out of a city (or within a city on a >30mph road) will therefore run it in addition to another car. As the vast majority of people who drive in cities sometimes might want to drive out of cities, what this means is that it sale in the UK will increase the number of motor vehicles on the road and the number of cars per household in cities.

Or simply hire another bigger car for the rare occasions when they actually need one.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Carshare has to be the way forwards for anyone who lives in a city. Unless you have specific mobility issues, getting around town by foot, bicycle or bus should be the default. If you commute any kind of distance, you should be using public transport wherever possible.

If you live in a small town or the countryside, public transport is so crap that a full-time car can be a necessity. But not so in cities. We clearly need to be more imaginative about this.

 

[Looby]

One of the issues with a lot of these solutions is that they’re really expensive. Much more expensive sometimes than running your own car, small or large.

Car hire and long commutes on public transport cost a lot of time and money that people don’t have so we do need to look at how to resolve that.

Adding travel time increases time out of the home, more childcare costs, no-one to pick the kids up, shitty work/life balance.

Working from home when possible helps but does bring its own issues.
Many people don’t have the space to work from home or have other people at home which makes it difficult. People are crammed into the corners of bedrooms or trying to work from the kitchen table.
It’s also isolating and impacts wellbeing.
Again, a luxury for those who have jobs that suit it and can afford an office space etc

Some jobs will always need a commute and can’t be done remotely.

A lot of these solutions require more money, space and time that many people have. Which makes the bullshit about rich bastards and their massive cars even more laughable because they’re often the only ones that have an achievable alternative and poor people still have cars, they just struggle massively to afford them.

My role will always need a vehicle due to the nature of the job.

I can imagine my employers reaction when I explain that I’ll be getting the bus between visits or offices which is two buses and almost 3x the travel time. So 3 total hours travel each time I go there.


Possible on a tube or cycling in London, not where I live. Even then most London colleagues drive.

So someone has to have a car, then they think about the car that meets their needs. 3 kids in car seats instantly means you are limited by width to fit them in safely. Kids should be in boosters until they’re at the end of primary unless they’re massive.

Anyone that has to carry a big pram, work gear, wheelchair, pets needs to factor that in.
They might need to think about accessibility, being able to comfortably step in and out or be able to stretch their leg out.


Then we get to a holiday and people might choose to stay in the UK. Huge brownie points for not flying (how many here fly whilst bitching about cars?). So they need to fit in luggage, camping equipment, pesky kids and pets.

Again it’ll be suggested they could hire a bigger car which then makes the affordable trip out of their price range and they can’t go or they realise 7 days in Alicante is actually cheaper.

Someone will likely say that a holiday is not a right which is true but that takes us back to the argument that the rich still can because they can have the big hire car to their cottage in the Cotswolds or have their long haul holiday.

None of these issues are insurmountable but they’re not simple or easy and it’s insulting when they’re not really considered and all we get is the same soundbites with very little actual content.

It’s all very well jumping up and down and ranting about car use but actually a lot of the conversations are so combative and sometimes aggressive that it just stops people engaging.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

^^ That's not a car it's a quadricycle. I assume anyone who owns one and ever needs to drive out of a city (or within a city on a >30mph road) will therefore run it in addition to another car. As the vast majority of people who drive in cities sometimes might want to drive out of cities, its sale in the UK will increase the number of motor vehicles on the road and the number of cars per household in cities.

Zipcar - Car Sharing | Hourly Car Rental

Hire a car by the minute, hour or day with Zipcar's car rental service. Car sharing is wheels when you want them, convenient to you.

www.zipcar.com

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

One of the issues with a lot of these solutions is that they’re really expensive. Much more expensive sometimes than running your own car, small or large.

Car hire and long commutes on public transport cost a lot of time and money that people don’t have so we do need to look at how to resolve that.

Adding travel time increases time out of the home, more childcare costs, no-one to pick the kids up, shitty work/life balance.

Working from home when possible helps but does bring its own issues.
Many people don’t have the space to work from home or have other people at home which makes it difficult. People are crammed into the corners of bedrooms or trying to work from the kitchen table.
It’s also isolating and impacts wellbeing.
Again, a luxury for those who have jobs that suit it and can afford an office space etc

Some jobs will always need a commute and can’t be done remotely.

A lot of these solutions require more money, space and time that many people have. Which makes the bullshit about rich bastards and their massive cars even more laughable because they’re often the only ones that have an achievable alternative and poor people still have cars, they just struggle massively to afford them.

My role will always need a vehicle due to the nature of the job.

I can imagine my employers reaction when I explain that I’ll be getting the bus between visits or offices which is two buses and almost 3x the travel time. So 3 total hours travel each time I go there.


Possible on a tube or cycling in London, not where I live. Even then most London colleagues drive.

So someone has to have a car, then they think about the car that meets their needs. 3 kids in car seats instantly means you are limited by width to fit them in safely. Kids should be in boosters until they’re at the end of primary unless they’re massive.

Anyone that has to carry a big pram, work gear, wheelchair, pets needs to factor that in.
They might need to think about accessibility, being able to comfortably step in and out or be able to stretch their leg out.


Then we get to a holiday and people might choose to stay in the UK. Huge brownie points for not flying (how many here fly whilst bitching about cars?). So they need to fit in luggage, camping equipment, pesky kids and pets.

Again it’ll be suggested they could hire a bigger car which then makes the affordable trip out of their price range and they can’t go or they realise 7 days in Alicante is actually cheaper.

Someone will likely say that a holiday is not a right which is true but that takes us back to the argument that the rich still can because they can have the big hire car to their cottage in the Cotswolds or have their long haul holiday.

None of these issues are insurmountable but they’re not simple or easy and it’s insulting when they’re not really considered and all we get is the same soundbites with very little actual content.

It’s all very well jumping up and down and ranting about car use but actually a lot of the conversations are so combative and sometimes aggressive that it just stops people engaging.

All of this is true, but is an argument for better and cheaper public transport, not cars.

 

[Looby]

All of this is true, but is an argument for better and cheaper public transport, not cars.

I didn’t say it wasn’t.